NOM

Like the topic says, this is almost exactly what I expected. This is one of two conversations that I have dreaded the most, after the discussion with my wife. I knew he would offer veiled threats and then bear testimony.

This pretty much defines him:

Part of me wants slap you & wake you up, part of me wants to reach out & give you a hug of support & help you, & part is very aware of my wife's & your wife's lazer beam eyes pointed at me, should I say the wrong thing.

I expected nothing less.

The kids never come out of it unscathed. The older they are, & the more stable they are, the better chance they have. Of your 3 children, 1-2 of them will likely follow in your footsteps, at some time in the future, wherever you may lead them. If you do not believe in God, then if they follow you, it may not bother you, but to the rest of us, it is of concern. The pressure on your wife to keep things at a spiritual normal for the kids, doing it by herself, will be significantly higher than before. An example would be her trip to the temple, alone, for some spiritual reinforcement.

I get that he's concerned. I know what he believes and what he thinks will happen to the kids. Does he think I just woke up and decided to do this on a whim?

Even the families who stay tight together in the church, still have problems with some of their children. The devil is real, is pretty smart, has lots of helpers, (1/3rd of the host of heaven, divided by the number on people on the earth now, that is like what, a 1,000 people to work on each one of us, that we cannot see that are trying to make our lives a mess), & a lot of tools that he knows how to use. Even in the best of cases, it is going to be hard to save our families

Ugh.

If you remove your name from the church records while you are on this journey of discovery, your eternal family blessings are at risk. They can be restored, but if something happens before then. Just saying.....

Just saying what?

If your family is important to you, may I suggest you do a lot of praying, from the soul. If you listen, you will hear him, it may not be in the way or when you think it should be, but if you are open & listening, you will hear Him. I promise He will, but be warned, sometimes if he is having a hard time getting through, he may send a tragedy your way, to help break down the wall that you may have unknowingly built.

This is the one that really pissed me off. To assume that I haven't prayed and prayed trying to quell the questions and doubts that I've had is pretty ignorant. He'll send tragedy my way to prove he's there? This is the level of insanity that we've risen to, evidently.

As I have told you before, mom & I love & support you. You have been a great husband for our daughter, a great father to our grand kids, & a great friend to us. Please do not take too long on this journey & please remain protective of your wife & children. If there is anything we can do to help, just let us know.

So, he knows I've been a great husband and father. He just wants to slap me and assumes I don't know what I'm doing. I'm a misguided soul led by the devil, or something.

I responded last night. I tried very hard not to let anger or bitterness shine through. I told him in no uncertain terms though that I am not on a journey or a quest to find faith again. It's gone, and it's not coming back. Told him specifically that the overwhelming evidence will no longer permit me to believe that humanity is 6000 years old. I also let him know, again, that I would support my kids in whatever faith they choose to pursue or leave behind. This is my favorite line from my response (pretty proud of this one!):

I simply disagree that people cannot be happy, live moral and wholesome lives, and raise happy well-adjusted children outside of the church. I’m surrounded by friends and family that are examples of that.

Thank you everyone for permitting me to rant. I was upset last night when I read his email. I was upset this morning when I thought about it. I'll probably be angry for a while. But coming here to discuss it is very cathartic.

Sorry to see you getting hammered by the FIL. Bottom line is there's no way to have a decent or logical conversation with this guy where anyone wins. He's barging all this on you in desperation, hoping to guilt you into still believing out of fear of damnation, especially where the kids are involved. It's a common method. I actually used the same method on my X when she had an affair and left the church and starting influencing my kids out of it. You'll need to take a more strategic approach when dealing with this guy if the conversation continues. No amount of facts and figures will help right now.

There are some here that have had this same email exchange with zealous TBM FILs that can provide some direction. Fortunately I didn't have to go through this when I left the church. I did send a letter to local leaders and so far it has been respected...at least for a couple of years, then the stake missionaries showed up last month. We accepted the loaf of bread and didn't kick them out, but it was just a casual visit, helped them feel better about checking me off their list that they got in the door.

IT_Veteran wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:53 am Like the topic says, this is almost exactly what I expected. This is one of two conversations that I have dreaded the most, after the discussion with my wife. I knew he would offer veiled threats and then bear testimony.

This is not a fun part of a faith transition. I do not believe there is a safe, secure way to explain a faith transition. LDS doctrine on apostasy is far too simplistic to have this conversation. There is no explanation that will completely convince our worried loved ones that we are not going to end dead in a ditch after doing meth with hookers.

In a weird way, believers kind of "hope" that we have some kind of tragedy to bring us back to the faith. After all, the spirit didn't seem to work on us, so hopefully there will be a low body count after yielding to the buffetings of Satan. Apparently, Satan is a Buffet fan.

A day or two ago, FairMormon put out their latest artice on Helping Doubters in the L.D.S. Church. It's arguably the most up to date way for believers to work with doubters. It was no surprise that their list of "Possible Core Issues" maintains the old explanation of "offense" as well as "not wanting to feel guilty". At no point do they acknowledge "disagree profoundly with LDS doctrine or history".

We have to play the long game. The looooooooong game. "The best revenge is living well" is not bad for a basic philosophy, but it can result in unhelpful condemnation if anything bad does happen to you. One strategy that has worked for me is figuring out what you want to be doing with your life, or at least your free Sunday mornings. Don't just be an ex-Mormon. It's fun for a while and at parties with other apostates, but it is not sustainable long term.

Figure out what you really want to be doing with your life. The LDS church has lots of rhetoric about why you should not turn apostates and the missionary program is aimed at people who think something is missing in their life. But LDS teachings have very little to say to anyone with a firm idea of their own spirituality. The institutional LDS church does not know how to deal with someone who already holds a personal philosophy and sense of moral judgement.

Recently I have been reading histories of the early Christian church. Whenever someone confronts me about my lack of faith I start talking about the development of the early Christian church and my general appreciation for Ambrose, Augustine, Arias, and Athanasius. And that's just the "A" names. Mormons tend to get nervous and back away slowly when someone with a grounding in systematic theology and church history. Joseph Smith is just this late footnote in Christianity who added far less to belief than Mormons really think he added.

IT_Veteran wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:53 am I simply disagree that people cannot be happy, live moral and wholesome lives, and raise happy well-adjusted children outside of the church. I’m surrounded by friends and family that are examples of that.

You are on the right path! Figure out some reasons for morality and goodness that resonate with you and can be supported by three thousand years of human philosophy. Let us know what works for you.

Ah, the single-minded arrogance of certainty and privilege! I remember thinking like that...

Why is it so rare for a believer to wish that a great thing would happen to bring those of us who stray back to the fold? "I warn you, the way you're going, God is going to have to do something so wonderful for you that you'll come crawling back, begging for more."

Thank you, all of you. Glad once again that I found this group to confide in, rant to, and commiserate with. I am working on finding out what this means for me and who I am now. The only things I do know are that I still love my wife, kids, and family. I hope they'll love me back. So far, he's the only one that has reacted this way (at least that I've seen, hard to know how people are reacting behind closed doors).

I do want to spend more time outside. I miss fishing, camping, etc. I want to learn how to hunt. I'm getting a motorcycle in a couple of weeks, and I'm looking forward to Sunday morning rides. Not to the point where I'm missing family time after church, but just exploring the world around me while they're not home.

I really don't have to look far for examples of people that are living good, productive, moral, and successful lives. My exmo brother and his nevermo wife have an adorable little family. He's been out for 20 years. No interest in faith, God, or religion. Somehow he's managed to pay all his bills, he's an amazing husband and father. He'll retire in a couple of years from the military and is already looking at where he can pay cash for a house. Their house is truly a house of love, just as much as mine is.

See why we suggest you don't engage!

I can't believe how typical and familiar that reply sounds. I've read a thousand of those same responses on these boards. Satan got ya! Are you crazy? Kids will suffer! Your poor wife! Blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Seriously though, it only gets better from here. If you continue to engage with him I suggest you stick to simple facts that he can't refute. Ask him how he reconciles (insert issue here) and sit back and let him bare the burden of proof. If you have looked at the church in 16 different ways and each way comes back with the same answer (Smith made it up) then you no longer have to continue. In other words, the truth claims of the church should be proven false. If each time you attempt to prove it false fails, then the church claims are true.

On another note your FIL is correct here.

The pressure on your wife to keep things at a spiritual normal for the kids, doing it by herself, will be significantly higher than before. An example would be her trip to the temple, alone, for some spiritual reinforcement.

This is by far the most difficult aspect of disaffection. Watching your dear wife struggle to cope and attend the temple for strength only to see her disappointed upon returning empty.

It sucks.

The price of admission to free your mind is steep but well worth the cost.

I really feel for you in this experience. Sadly I was that FIL about five years ago when my SIL resigned from the church and had my sweet daughter unsure of where her eternal life would end up.
There were some uncomfortable conversations where I was condescending and arrogant in my assessment of what seemed to be deception on his part. True to my Mormon training I was sure he was wrong and I was right. He gently asked me if I’d ever considered some of the issues which had led him to question his once firm testimony. I had not even realized there were sticky issues but agreed to look. Started off with the Book of Abraham and that was the start to my rabbit hole adventure.

I’m sure it seems futile to you now but I’d suggest a course which gives your TBM loved ones the benefit of the doubt, assume loving intent and give them some faithful sources like the church essays to see what you’re going through.
I’d also suggest establishing and protecting your personal boarders to help keep your sanity.


Best of luck to you.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:57 am
On another note your FIL is correct here.

The pressure on your wife to keep things at a spiritual normal for the kids, doing it by herself, will be significantly higher than before. An example would be her trip to the temple, alone, for some spiritual reinforcement.

This is by far the most difficult aspect of disaffection. Watching your dear wife struggle to cope and attend the temple for strength only to see her disappointed upon returning empty.

Yeah, I've watched her struggle with this. She went to the temple several months ago to ask God how she should handle my lack of faith or testimony. She said she realized everything would be okay and she was at peace. She recognizes that everything being okay doesn't mean I'm coming back to the church or anything, just that it will be okay.

No Tof wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:07 pm I really feel for you in this experience. Sadly I was that FIL about five years ago when my SIL resigned from the church and had my sweet daughter unsure of where her eternal life would end up.
There were some uncomfortable conversations where I was condescending and arrogant in my assessment of what seemed to be deception on his part. True to my Mormon training I was sure he was wrong and I was right. He gently asked me if I’d ever considered some of the issues which had led him to question his once firm testimony. I had not even realized there were sticky issues but agreed to look. Started off with the Book of Abraham and that was the start to my rabbit hole adventure.

I’m sure it seems futile to you now but I’d suggest a course which gives your TBM loved ones the benefit of the doubt, assume loving intent and give them some faithful sources like the church essays to see what you’re going through.
I’d also suggest establishing and protecting your personal boarders to help keep your sanity.


Best of luck to you.

Thank you for the kind words and your perspective. I hope that we can have a good relationship too. It felt like we finally had one the last few years, after him holding a lot of anger and resentment around my earlier rebellion. DW and I were three weeks pregnant when we were married in his backyard (she was 17, I was 18).

Holy F*ckballs,

I've seen some pretty messed up shiz and this one is definitely on the list.
EDIT -

Like Red Ryder said, we've seen this a thousand times before. However, you FIL ranks high on the outward expression of being an ass instead of the typical mormon passive aggressiveness.

Lots of good advice here. The best I can offer is just ignore it. Live you life and be happy. Yes, mormonism is going to be a part of your life for the foreseeable future. Some days will suck. Your best defence is indifference.

Ugh... His reply is definitely par for the course. He's only doing what he's been taught to do. (Or had forced down his throat, likely since his first breath.) Fear, guilt and shame are the main tools in that "arsenal". Sadly, as others have mentioned, I remember doing the exact same thing...


Now that you've given him your initial reply, my personal recommendation is to disengage. Tell him that you'd like to remain friends, so religion (and politics) are off the table as far as discussion is concerned. If he insists on engaging, give him homework for the discussions. (The essays...)

I'm not completely "out" to any of my believing family members. We're simply not close enough for it to matter, and honestly, if my one living parent found out about me, I'm pretty sure it would kill them. When the time comes to "discuss" such matters, I'm going to attempt to use some pretty simple statements:

• The LDS religion simply does not work. (And statistically speaking, it does not work for the majority of it's members. Anyone who knows anything at all about activity rates knows this.)
• The LDS church is not what it claims to be.

Beyond that, I'll attempt to take my own advice given above, and the discussions will involve them "reading what I've read" and then I'll attempt to use street epistemology (or the Socratic Method) to have them provide extraordinary evidence to back up their extraordinary claims. And no: Testimony doesn't count as extraordinary evidence.

So, my wife and I discussed his letter last night. It started with a question from her asking if I was okay. I asked her what she meant, and she confirmed that she meant was I okay after reading her dad's letter.

Turns out she spoke with him on the phone before he sent it. She specifically asked him not to send anything like that, just to express love and support. He assured her that he would, and not send something like what I received.

She's hurt and she's angry. She is in disbelief that he would send it anyway. I gently let her know that that is who he is. He's never not been in control. The only other time he wasn't in control or able to exert leverage was when we were married (he had already given consent and her mom had signed the marriage license since she was still 17). When he called to say he had changed his mind I told him to pound sand because I already had the license. We were going to be married in his backyard as planned, or we were going to the courthouse.

That's literally the only time he has had to relinquish control of anything at home or with family.

Sorry, didn't mean for this to be so long, just really grateful for my wife and it's hard to see her hurting.

IT_Veteran wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:53 am I get that he's concerned. I know what he believes and what he thinks will happen to the kids. Does he think I just woke up and decided to do this on a whim?

What's funny about that line of counsel is, if I don't believe in the church then my children following me in disbelief is not exactly some horrible outcome. Do they think you are sitting there thinking, "Not believing is good for me, but it would be horrible if my kids stopped believing and lost out on the Celestial kingdom." As hair pulling as such responses are though, I find them to be expected.

Ugh.

Indeed, dude can be outsmarted by a handshake. Don't try to sell me on the idea of a smart and cunning Satan.

If you remove your name from the church records while you are on this journey of discovery, your eternal family blessings are at risk. They can be restored, but if something happens before then. Just saying.....

Imaginary blessings are at risk! What ever will you do! Just more mypoia. Like I get that he believes it, but why would you think this an convincing argument? You might as well respond, "Oh, I'm not worry. The Flying Spaghetti Monster promised me exaltation if I resign." May he'd be able to put it together then.

This is the one that really pissed me off. To assume that I haven't prayed and prayed trying to quell the questions and doubts that I've had is pretty ignorant. He'll send tragedy my way to prove he's there? This is the level of insanity that we've risen to, evidently.

As offensive as it is, it isn't surprising. That you somehow prayed wrong is a go to response to inconclusive or contrary prayers, anything but the expected Mormon response to prayer is prima facie evidence that you did it wrong (so much for giving to all men liberally and upbraiding them not, eh?).

So, he knows I've been a great husband and father. He just wants to slap me and assumes I don't know what I'm doing. I'm a misguided soul led by the devil, or something.

Remember, chewing someone out and then praising them is a divinely approved pattern of emotional manipulation (D&C 121:43).

I simply disagree that people cannot be happy, live moral and wholesome lives, and raise happy well-adjusted children outside of the church. I’m surrounded by friends and family that are examples of that.

I like it.

My mil sent me a similarly nasty email after we left the church. In it, she made a veiled suggestion that my kids were likely to be molested because we weren't in the church. (On an even bigger What the what? note regarding that, a family member's kids were molested by a church member.)

Anyways, I wrote her back and told her that I was not going to discuss it with her under any conditions and that we were going to raise our kids how we wanted to just like she did. Then I asked her what kind of pie she wanted us to bring for the next family get-together, and that was the end of that. She tried going through dh, and he had the same response. No discussion of the church and our departure from it.

You don't have to engage people in their nonsense or recognize their self-proclaimed authority. Set your boundaries and make them known.

FWIW, my own then-bishop father resigned from the church a few months after he told me that I was being drastic in doing so. People can change their minds, too.

I do want to spend more time outside.

If you are in Northern Utah there are a few of us NOMs who get together a couple of times per month and hike local canyons on the Watsach front early Saturday or Sunday mornings. We’ve done Parish, Baer, Adams, lake Blance, etc.

You (or anyone for that matter) are welcome to come along. It’s great free therapy.

Shoot me a pm if interested and I’ll let you know when we go next.

Sorry about your situation. That’s why I’ve stayed the coward for 10 years and haven’t “came out” as a non-believer. Sucks, but I could lose everything.

w2mz wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:49 pm If you are in Northern Utah there are a few of us NOMs who get together a couple of times per month and hike local canyons on the Watsach front early Saturday or Sunday mornings. We’ve done Parish, Baer, Adams, lake Blance, etc.

You (or anyone for that matter) are welcome to come along. It’s great free therapy.

Shoot me a pm if interested and I’ll let you know when we go next.

Sorry about your situation. That’s why I’ve stayed the coward for 10 years and haven’t “came out” as a non-believer. Sucks, but I could lose everything.

Wow, I think this is the first time I've ever wished I was living back in Utah again.

w2mz wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:49 pm

I do want to spend more time outside.

If you are in Northern Utah there are a few of us NOMs who get together a couple of times per month and hike local canyons on the Watsach front early Saturday or Sunday mornings. We’ve done Parish, Baer, Adams, lake Blance, etc.

You (or anyone for that matter) are welcome to come along. It’s great free therapy.

Shoot me a pm if interested and I’ll let you know when we go next.

Sorry about your situation. That’s why I’ve stayed the coward for 10 years and haven’t “came out” as a non-believer. Sucks, but I could lose everything.

Sounds great, but I'm not in Utah (can't say it's unfortunate). I'm in California - haven't found any exmo groups within a couple hours of my house yet. I appreciate the invite though!