NOM

I’ve been ponderizing the idea that we believe god has a body of flesh and bones.

I’m not sure where this doctrine comes from. Can you scholars help an out brother out?

There are many Biblical scriptures that imply the doctrine but D&C 130:22 spells it out specifically. See also Moses 6:9

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/god-b ... e?lang=eng

I appreciate the references Palerider and of course they are familiar. If we can accept that the Luke 24 account is an actual event then this would be the most compelling evidence. I was wondering in our day of the fulfillment of all things, if there wasn’t a witnessed event something like that in Luke.

As far as I’m aware the first vision(or was it the second or third variation) that Joseph saw god. Is there anything about touching or eating together that would substantiate the notion of a body as tangible as mans?

I think there are a few accounts over the years of leadership seeing Christ, mostly in the temple. The one of Lorenz Snow comes to mind but has been questioned for authenticity.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/09/a-vi ... r?lang=eng

Personally I find any supposed visitation to be scripturally unfounded. Whether in or out of the church.

If I recall the Biblical scriptures indicate Christ would not return or be seen again until He would do so in glory. Thus I put little stock in the visions of overwrought men or women who desire visions for their own sake rather than a relationship with Christ via the Holy Ghost.

Back in my TBM days, I remember having the column where the alleged appearance of Christ to Lorenzo Snow happened pointed out to me in the temple. I didn't know at the time the story came through his granddaughter years after it allegedly occurred either. And since that time, I've become aware of the MASSIVE backdating/changes to revelation that have happened to change the narrative. So to me, I can't look at ANY LDS doctrine/theology as happening as written, or even claimed. There are people who have claimed that things have happened just as they are written--unchanged. And the evidence that shows changes is so ridiculously blatant I have been stripped of being able to believe anything said by LDS authority now.

I think there is value in the teachings about being loving, kind, and honest which are NOT exclusively LDS. I think the LDS church teaching about God's body being tangle as man is surrounded with so much swirling obfuscation and crap it is utterly not possible to believe it, let alone even accept it is anything more than a narrative change to keep JS in power.

I’m not trying to beat this to death and my personal thoughts continue to be that all “doctrine” of all churches is the philosophy of men mingled with more imaginations of men.

I’m still wondering where our church came up with this idea. The accounts of the risen christ being touched and eating seem to be the last time anything points to this. I’m no expert in christianity but I think most of that persuasion believe jesus (heyzoos) left that body and resumed his hard to understand position in the trinity.

Us Mormon’s testify with passion that both god and heyzoos are clothed with flesh and bones. But I can’t seem to find any reasonable evidence in our modern experience.

How does god transport that body through space and time, from Kolob to Earth and back again?

Kolob doesn't seem to be anywhere near our solar system so I'm guessing Kolob would be hundreds of thousands of light years away (at least). If it takes light a few hundred thousand years to travel across space, how does god & Jesus, with their bodies of flesh and bone, do it instantaneously? Teletransporters? Maybe the story is made up?

D&C 130:22

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

Spicy McHaggis wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:52 pm How does god transport that body through space and time, from Kolob to Earth and back again?

It is transcending the limitations placed on the acceleration of matter via Heisenberg Compensators which proves it is all so true. "Take us to warp-1830, Number One", is all God has to say.

When 2 Chronicles 2:6 suggests that even the Heavens cannot contain God, it was referring to the impossibility of a 3-D man of flesh and bone being effectual across the 9 tightly woven dimensions. The Chronicles writer had obviously not taken into account the Heisenberg Compensators.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:43 pm D&C 130:22

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

I hate this scripture because it means the Holy Ghost possesses us. We are liked "Possessed!". Wasn't like the Exorcist movie about something like that? But its OK if its the Holy Ghost.

And how can I be influence by having the Spirit of Christ in the room with me? In't Christ's spirit in his body?...so his body is there or what? And how can the Spirit of Christ be in one meeting and at the same time in another meeting?...cuz its impossible according to JS for a resurrected being to be in two places at exactly the same time.

Oh. I remember now. "Its a miracle". God can do whatever he wants, and we just need to have faith.

I'm ok now.

sciencebird wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:09 am The Chronicles writer had obviously not taken into account the Heisenberg Compensators.

Besides the Compensators, no thought was given to the Infinite Improbability Drive, which was first mentioned in the Sundance Film Festival award-winning documentary Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.

No Tof wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:26 pm I’m not trying to beat this to death and my personal thoughts continue to be that all “doctrine” of all churches is the philosophy of men mingled with more imaginations of men.

I’m still wondering where our church came up with this idea. The accounts of the risen christ being touched and eating seem to be the last time anything points to this. I’m no expert in christianity but I think most of that persuasion believe jesus (heyzoos) left that body and resumed his hard to understand position in the trinity.

Us Mormon’s testify with passion that both god and heyzoos are clothed with flesh and bones. But I can’t seem to find any reasonable evidence in our modern experience.

I think it arose from Joseph Smith wanting to exalt mankind to the level of God. (Whether for everyone's benefit or just his own is anyone's guess.) To do that, we have to change nature upon receipt of exaltation, or God has to change nature now, or both. Joseph struck a balance that accorded with his reading of scripture ("there are bodies celestial"): God's nature changed form but not glory to be more like ours, and our nature changes in glory but not form to become like God upon exaltation.

It still bothers me when Christians forget the glory part and focus on the form. To me, the idea that you can become like God in every way is one of the few unique things about Mormonism that's generally good.

Thanks for your comments everyone. Seems like it became scripture without any documented witness from anyone.

Strange that we hold this doctrine in such high esteem and as a unique proof of our place in the religious world without anything to back up our claim that is unique. Makes me remember Consiglieri’s RFM podcast about doctrines from nothing at all.

The idea that god is a simple being as described in our doctrines seems to be something dumbed down to make it easy to swallow.
I like the concept of god. I’m open to learn more but for now my thoughts toggle between doubtful and “if there is such a thing”, it’s definitely much different then what I believed.

No Tof wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:09 pm Thanks for your comments everyone. Seems like it became scripture without any documented witness from anyone.

I think most Mormons would think the burden of proof has been met, because Joseph Smith said it.

What would you accept as evidence?

Reuben wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:09 pm

No Tof wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:09 pm Thanks for your comments everyone. Seems like it became scripture without any documented witness from anyone.

I think most Mormons would think the burden of proof has been met, because Joseph Smith said it.

What would you accept as evidence?

That’s what I think is strange, even for TBMS. he may have written it in the D&C but didn’t even record an instance of touching or anything other then a vision which I interpret as a visual/psychological event.

To say god has a body in our dimension should IMO, have some kind of experiential reference. Whether you believe the source or not, I’m surprised at the lack of follow through.

The idea that God has a body of flesh and bones shows up late in Joseph Smith's ministry. I suspect it comes from the belief he arrived at that God is a resurrected being from a prior world, as more fully set forth in the king Follett discourse. Because of this, I theorize that this passage of scripture in the doctrine and covenants is the only place in the canon that strongly suggests this doctrine. When you understand what is behind it, it suddenly seems much clearer, to me at least. I mean, where did god get a body of flesh and bones in the first place? For Jesus, the answer is simple. For God, the answer is a little more complex. At least that's my two cents!

Gods with bods was a necessary theological adjunct for the Celestial Polygamy Principle.

Palerider wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:51 pm I think there are a few accounts over the years of leadership seeing Christ, mostly in the temple. The one of Lorenz Snow comes to mind but has been questioned for authenticity.

Here's my summary of a fascinating article that pretty much puts that old wives' tale to bed: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-A ... sp=sharing

Seven years after Lorenzo Snow's supposed face-to-face with Jesus, President Heber J. Grant was asked in a letter which church leaders had actually been visited personally by Jesus Christ. Grant responded, “I know of no instance where the Lord has appeared to an individual since His appearance to the Prophet Joseph Smith.” (First Presidency Letterpress Copybooks, Vol. 72)

No one since that time has claimed any such personal visitation either. So it all hinges on something that was included in one of Joseph's First Vision accounts but omitted from others. And even at that, Joseph made no claim of physical contact or anything else that proved physical presence. For all he knew, God and Jesus could have been cephalopods projecting humanoid holograms for his benefit.

No Tof wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:09 pmThe idea that god is a simple being as described in our doctrines seems to be something dumbed down to make it easy to swallow.

We hear testimonies that God has a body of flesh and bone. I'd like to hear someone testify of God's body in even more human terms: "I know God has a body with nostril hair and a scrotum, and probably belly-button lint."

consiglieri wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:27 pm The idea that God has a body of flesh and bones shows up late in Joseph Smith's ministry. I suspect it comes from the belief he arrived at that God is a resurrected being from a prior world, as more fully set forth in the king Follett discourse. Because of this, I theorize that this passage of scripture in the doctrine and covenants is the only place in the canon that strongly suggests this doctrine. When you understand what is behind it, it suddenly seems much clearer, to me at least. I mean, where did god get a body of flesh and bones in the first place? For Jesus, the answer is simple. For God, the answer is a little more complex. At least that's my two cents!

Thanks for those two cents. The idea that this doctrine doesn’t show up well after JS’s vision seems to support the idea that that experience was only visual/psychological.

His account of the priesthood restoration by the laying on of hands from resurrected guys at least gave a basis to believe in tangible bodies. Jesus and god, not so much.