NOM

I mostly gave up on the church because I realized it is not true. Even a little bit. There was no policy or practice that drove me away. I just did not want to spend time on something with no real benefit. Granted there are things about the church I hate like temples and garments but they were never deciding factors.

So I really do not care if the church changes much or not. In fact changing may hurt more than it helps.

So I wonder why some spend so much energy trying to get the church to be more inclusive or responsible. It is still false so what’s the point. If it marries gays in the temple that stil does not make eternal marriage true.

Maybe some believe it is true but off the rails some like Snufferites. But really there is no way it can be anything more than the inventions of a overactive mind.

So I think I will just continue to shrug when some new statement or policy comes out that upsets people. They have no power over me.

For me and my immediate family, I totally agree. But I want to see it change for the following reasons:
- It affects my extended family and many of my friends, as they continue to devote precious time and resources to it
- It perpetuates untruths about science and history and get's in the way of true human progress
- It perpetuates unhealthy teaching and practices, e.g. guilt and fear about sex and otherwise silly things, as well as misogynistic suppression of women
- In Utah, even though I don't pay tithing anymore, my tax dollars are spent on things influenced by this dominant religion that I don't feel they should be

For these and other reasons I want to see it more rapidly get watered down into a general Christian/Unitarian religion and eventually fade away. Sooner the better!

Change significantly and intentionally, or implode; those are the only options I'm interested in. I'll take either one, but continuing as a two-faced entity that presents an insincere spin about what they really believe/teach in hushed tones (the current and more likely option) is unacceptable. Of course, the church will be slowly dragged along behind social change until it becomes a flavorless pablum, but that's not sincere, intentional change with the goal of doing the right thing, it's just entropy.

I'm kind of with both Hagoth and Rubinhighlander here. I like to see someone have to face up to the truth when they've been running a harmful scam that effects so many lives. Things that make people's lives worse rather than better as promised.

I'd like to not have to think about the church anymore but I have quite a few family members who are still under it's influence, carrying water for the corporation and pouring money down the rat hole. It aggravates me.

1smartdodog wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:25 pm
So I wonder why some spend so much energy trying to get the church to be more inclusive or responsible. It is still false so what’s the point. If it marries gays in the temple that stil does not make eternal marriage true.

Tons of things are not "true" that make differences in people's lives. I think around here we ignore the healthy benefit that church can be for people. I know several people that have really and truly benefited from the church. Why would you not want an organization with potential good to change and maximize its potential?

Unfortunately, LDS-Inc. isn't going away any time soon.

If it could "change" to be a bit less damaging to some folks, then I'm all for that sort of change.

The vast majority of my family still have the hooks buried deep. Any change that could loosen that hold, I'm all for it.

Emower wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:39 pm

1smartdodog wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:25 pm
So I wonder why some spend so much energy trying to get the church to be more inclusive or responsible. It is still false so what’s the point. If it marries gays in the temple that stil does not make eternal marriage true.

Tons of things are not "true" that make differences in people's lives. I think around here we ignore the healthy benefit that church can be for people. I know several people that have really and truly benefited from the church. Why would you not want an organization with potential good to change and maximize its potential?

Agreed.

I think far more of our lives is the product of over-active imaginations than we like to give credit. Sure, some is more fanciful and ridiculous and harmful but it doesn't change the fact that a lot of things aren't 'true' but just things we've all agreed to believe. IMO the fact that they are fictions should make them more pliable and easier to change (maybe not easier but at least possible to change).

I don't begrudge anyone who says "screw this, I'm out" when dealing with difficult situations or enviornments. Heck, I did it with the church too. But I will always respect those who advocate for change.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:05 pm Unfortunately, LDS-Inc. isn't going away any time soon.

If it could "change" to be a bit less damaging to some folks, then I'm all for that sort of change.

The vast majority of my family still have the hooks buried deep. Any change that could loosen that hold, I'm all for it.

Yes, this is my situation also. In addition, I have never truly been harmed or abused by the church. I have complete compassion on those that leave the church because their situation was bad. They do not need to prop up an institution that is hurting them. I give some time (3 hours on Sunday) to the church but no tithing. It's a stability that works for me.

At the same time, I respect neo-apologists like Tyrell Givens, Richard Bushman, and Patrick Mason for the understanding they usually grant to doubters. They have acknowledged their own patience towards the institutional church as their price of Christian discipleship. But I have little faith that things are going to get better nor that I will necessarily stick around forever. My wife and I have considered moving and I'm not sure that I would remain active if we did.

I like the imploding idea. That is probably the best thing long term

Yes let’s get rid of damaging ideas but I don’t think the church moving a little here or there makes much of a difference. Maybe wholesale upheaval would do something but that is very unlikely.

So I still believe when confronted with the reality of what the church is it’s best to just state it is not true don’t waste your time. Or participate but realize it will most likely stay what it is.

Maybe someday something will happen that will cause it to change significantly but I doubt it.

Emower wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:39 pm

1smartdodog wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:25 pm
So I wonder why some spend so much energy trying to get the church to be more inclusive or responsible. It is still false so what’s the point. If it marries gays in the temple that stil does not make eternal marriage true.

Tons of things are not "true" that make differences in people's lives. I think around here we ignore the healthy benefit that church can be for people. I know several people that have really and truly benefited from the church. Why would you not want an organization with potential good to change and maximize its potential?

There is not a single benefit the Church gives anyone that cannot be found elsewhere without all of the Church's baggage. I will go so far as to say that the Church is a parasite that rides on the back of benefits people get from things like having a social support structure, having a strong belief system, and having opportunities for service. All of these these and the other positives the Church offers - every single one of them - is available from a variety of sources in society, but the Church makes people think it is the only place these things can be found. And it exacts a heavy price to "provide" you with these benefits. It lies to you, deceives you, manipulates you, bends you to its will, sucks away your time, infantilizes you, demands 10% of your income, destroys your relationships if you get out of line - and what you get from it in return is readily available elsewhere without the strings.

I'm not ignoring the healthy benefit that the Church can be for people - I am being realistic about what it costs people and where else they can find said benefit without the costs.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:55 am

Emower wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:39 pm

1smartdodog wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:25 pm
So I wonder why some spend so much energy trying to get the church to be more inclusive or responsible. It is still false so what’s the point. If it marries gays in the temple that stil does not make eternal marriage true.

Tons of things are not "true" that make differences in people's lives. I think around here we ignore the healthy benefit that church can be for people. I know several people that have really and truly benefited from the church. Why would you not want an organization with potential good to change and maximize its potential?

There is not a single benefit the Church gives anyone that cannot be found elsewhere without all of the Church's baggage. I will go so far as to say that the Church is a parasite that rides on the back of benefits people get from things like having a social support structure, having a strong belief system, and having opportunities for service. All of these these and the other positives the Church offers - every single one of them - is available from a variety of sources in society, but the Church makes people think it is the only place these things can be found. And it exacts a heavy price to "provide" you with these benefits. It lies to you, deceives you, manipulates you, bends you to its will, sucks away your time, infantilizes you, demands 10% of your income, destroys your relationships if you get out of line - and what you get from it in return is readily available elsewhere without the strings.

I'm not ignoring the healthy benefit that the Church can be for people - I am being realistic about what it costs people and where else they can find said benefit without the costs.

This feels like saying "There are a lot of things about America that suck, and there is not one single good thing about America that cannot be found somewhere else. So lets burn America down, people can go find good things somewhere else." Sure, but people are already in America. Why turn them out? Why not try to change what you want to change instead?

I didnt say that you couldnt find things somewhere else, but some people dont want to go somewhere else. They would rather change where they are at. And I think that is a perfectly valid activity.

Emower wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:31 pm

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:55 am

Emower wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:39 pm Tons of things are not "true" that make differences in people's lives. I think around here we ignore the healthy benefit that church can be for people. I know several people that have really and truly benefited from the church. Why would you not want an organization with potential good to change and maximize its potential?

There is not a single benefit the Church gives anyone that cannot be found elsewhere without all of the Church's baggage. I will go so far as to say that the Church is a parasite that rides on the back of benefits people get from things like having a social support structure, having a strong belief system, and having opportunities for service. All of these these and the other positives the Church offers - every single one of them - is available from a variety of sources in society, but the Church makes people think it is the only place these things can be found. And it exacts a heavy price to "provide" you with these benefits. It lies to you, deceives you, manipulates you, bends you to its will, sucks away your time, infantilizes you, demands 10% of your income, destroys your relationships if you get out of line - and what you get from it in return is readily available elsewhere without the strings.

I'm not ignoring the healthy benefit that the Church can be for people - I am being realistic about what it costs people and where else they can find said benefit without the costs.

This feels like saying "There are a lot of things about America that suck, and there is not one single good thing about America that cannot be found somewhere else. So lets burn America down, people can go find good things somewhere else." Sure, but people are already in America. Why turn them out? Why not try to change what you want to change instead?

I didnt say that you couldnt find things somewhere else, but some people dont want to go somewhere else. They would rather change where they are at. And I think that is a perfectly valid activity.

Your America analogy is not the one I would use. Personally I would favor a snake oil salesman analogy. If the customers are satisfied, if they think they are getting their money's worth, if they like the snake oil, if they think it tastes good, it doesn't change the fact that they are paying a con man for snake oil. They are giving their money to someone who is deceiving them when it could be better spent elsewhere.

The Church cannot be changed to make it what it claims to be. That is impossible. And if it stops claiming to be what it claims to be, then it stops being the Church and becomes something else. In a sense, using your analogy it would be burning America down, so to speak.

I get where you are coming from, I really do. But I think we give the Church way too much credit when we talk about the good it does people without also talking about the costs involved.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:30 pm
I get where you are coming from, I really do. But I think we give the Church way too much credit when we talk about the good it does people without also talking about the costs involved.

Despite the fact I’ll be sitting in the pew again tomorrow, and I feel no animosity towards the church in general, I have to agree with NBI in the idea that there is really nothing of enduring value in the church.

To me, all churches are irrelevant. Harmful if you are enraptured but harmless when you have embraced the poor sucker behind the curtain.

Emower wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:31 pm

This feels like saying "There are a lot of things about America that suck, and there is not one single good thing about America that cannot be found somewhere else. So lets burn America down, people can go find good things somewhere else." Sure, but people are already in America. Why turn them out? Why not try to change what you want to change instead?

I didnt say that you couldnt find things somewhere else, but some people dont want to go somewhere else. They would rather change where they are at. And I think that is a perfectly valid activity.

This metaphor makes sense to me. I may not believe in the correlated truth narrative of the church, but my family is LDS, 1/2 to 2/3 of my neighbors are LDS, and I would like to see the Church grow up. The Church is still hurting people: LBGT's, Feminists, and kids that, like me grew up feeling something was wrong with the church but didn't know what to do about it, because everyone else was drinking the Kool-aid. I grew up feeling affinity for intellectuals, but being told that they were "the Enemy." If I had been gay or a feminist, I might have figured it out sooner. But no one told me the strange new feelings that I had growing up, which told me to trust my reason, instead of the Cleon Skousen's and Bruce McConkie's of the world, were OK, were legitimate, and that aspiring to be a "so-called intellectual" was actually OK.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:48 pm This metaphor makes sense to me. I may not believe in the correlated truth narrative of the church, but my family is LDS, 1/2 to 2/3 of my neighbors are LDS, and I would like to see the Church grow up. The Church is still hurting people: LBGT's, Feminists, and kids that, like me grew up feeling something was wrong with the church but didn't know what to do about it, because everyone else was drinking the Kool-aid. I grew up feeling affinity for intellectuals, but being told that they were "the Enemy." If I had been gay or a feminist, I might have figured it out sooner. But no one told me the strange new feelings that I had growing up, which told me to trust my reason, instead of the Cleon Skousen's and Bruce McConkie's of the world, were OK, were legitimate, and that aspiring to be a "so-called intellectual" was actually OK.

Hear, hear. Also, I have four children who are square pegs, who would be better off not being mashed into round holes. I would rather see the church grow up than fall apart.

I love being a so-called intellectual. I love being able to think critically, to avoid being taken advantage of easily, and to be able to read research papers on relevant psychological and medical science. (My own field, computer science, hasn't enriched my understanding of humanity lately, but the reading skills transfer.) And you know what I've noticed? Yeah, there are some stuck-up PhDs out there, but on the whole, they're a humble and teachable lot. I've never known people who more easily say "I don't know" and "I don't understand" than the people I currently work with. And two of them are a couple of the most famous computer scientists in the world.

What they will do is ask tough questions to try to uncover every last detail... because they're teachable. They tend to have a good idea of the limits of their own knowledge. The only people who would call people like this proud are those who feel threatened by tough questions and honesty.