NOM

Think I've just been outed to the ward.

DW phones me from outside church. Has just borne her testimony, spoke about being there alone today (I stayed home to do some things, which is unusual,as I'm usually there). Said it was hard, but it would all work out!!!

I was quite happy on the slow burn. Looks like my hand has been forced, and I will find myself under the magnifying glass.

Probably not a bad thing, as it will likely drive a few inquiries and short conversations, and allow me to put more distance between being seen as as devout.

As long as people will give me my space I'm happy to turn up on a Sunday and hold DW's hand, otherwise I walk. I think of John Dehlin saying he doesn't want to be anywhere he is considered a second class citizen. I think I've just dropped rank.

You don't owe anybody details...

They don't have to know what your beliefs are/aren't.

Regardless of generally poor boundaries in Mormondom, you're an adult and they don't need to know anything about your spirituality unless you tell them. You might need to work on your wife's boundaries regarding you, though...

You seem to be handling this really well. It can be very frustrating when someone takes the narrative from you. I’m sorry it happened.

I think your planned approach to attendance is thoughtful to your DW and to your own well being. Hopefully there will be some positives to being out to your ward.

To be be fair DW realised she misspoke and apologised almost as soon as it happened. I explained that yes, I would have preferred that she had not implied anything, but on balance it was OK.

Why was it OK?

I have been on the slow burn. I am unsure how much of that has been due to a prudent approach, and how much that has been down to an element of cowardice.

Mrs RJ is a tremendous person, who I think at some level is having her own FC and we all have moments where we say things we perhaps shouldn't have.

Over at exmo reddit there are plenty of stories of TBM DW's divorcing those who "fall away". Mrs RJ has been pretty consistently wonderful throughout my FC. She has never levelled any accusation at me of being unrighteous, unworthy or in any other way less-than.

The first conversations it has forced have been with my own kids (most of who are less active) I completely outed myself to a couple today - older teens, who were non-plussed. I had 'the conversation' with my youngest a couple of weeks ago, who took it completely in their stride. I have one more conversation with an older child (less-active) who I know will not care one way or another: we have had chats around religion and controversy/history before.

Conversation went like this:

(a) I like singing hymns and jesus (b) don't agree with church's stance on same sex marriage, don;t agree that my next door neighbour needs to be mormon in this life or the next to have his family in the afterlife (c) If I am extra busy, I won't be at church on Sunday, and if they see me with a beer don't be surprised.

(That conversation has been structured and and rehearsed in my mind for well over a year).

The reason I have held off with talking to my kids was the fear of saddening DW. But today produced a green light - it's no good having the ward making assumptions, and not being transparent with the children.

So it is 10 hours later, and I am more authentic with my family as a result of today's faux pas - so not a disaster.

Thanks for commenting guys - it's good to have the NOM ward to talk to.

Congrats on getting out in front of it with your kids! Sounds like it went really well.

I'm a little jealous, I don't think my DW would handle me telling my kids of my disaffection very well, so I don't.

redjay wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:21 pm ...I'm happy to turn up on a Sunday and hold DW's hand.

...Mrs RJ has been pretty consistently wonderful throughout my FC. She has never levelled any accusation at me of being unrighteous, unworthy or in any other way less-than.

All things considered, it sounds like you two are on good ground. Cherish that, and Mrs RJ.

redjay wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:21 pm ..I have been on the slow burn. I am unsure how much of that has been due to a prudent approach, and how much that has been down to an element of cowardice.

I can relate to this. It turns out that to "know thyself" is actually pretty tricky. At least, for me it has been.

redjay wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:45 am I think of John Dehlin saying he doesn't want to be anywhere he is considered a second class citizen. I think I've just dropped rank.

DW and I really felt like 2nd class citizens quite a bit when we were full on TBMs. Those who were divorced and remarried with melded families often fall in this category. Divorced and single definitely.

Well Redjay I hope your outing sets you on a course of more happiness and freedom and not more drama.

5...4...3...2...1.. DW and I invited to meet with the SP tomorrow during the 3 hour block. Coincidence

Ouch! Good luck in your meeting, or is there still time to cancel?

redjay wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:06 am 5...4...3...2...1.. DW and I invited to meet with the SP tomorrow during the 3 hour block. Coincidence

It's probably too late, but don't go to the meeting unless they tell you what it is about. Hypothetical conversation:

Executive Sec: Hey, can you meet with the stake president during the 3 hour block.
You: What's it about?
Executive Sec: I don't know.
You: Well, if you can find out let me know.
Executie Sec: Uh...

(Later)

Executive Sec: The SP wants to talk about X.
You: (decline or accept as is your wont)

Letting you know the purpose of a meeting they want you to go to is just basic courtesy.

It made sense for your wife to express concern for being alone. If you look around the chapel, it appears to be a couples activity interspersed with fidgeting Cheerios eaters. That is why singles feel out of place in a "family ward".

well I went in, ready to establish boundaries.

Turns out the SP (who is new to the position) wanted to meet with some people who he had not met before - our stake is geographically large.

So it seems the meeting wan;t a response to be outed by Mrs RJ.

Anyway, I can only say that we had a fairly open and respectful conversation. If the church was filled to the brim with people like the SP the church would flourish. He seemed fairly close to being a NOM, was more interested in Jesus than the church, and was happy for me attend despite my unorthodox beliefs.

I can't really ask for anything more than that.

Congratulations. I have my temple rec interview coming up this summer and we'll see if my ward and stake leadership will be similarly tolerant.

Corsair wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:24 am Congratulations. I have my temple rec interview coming up this summer and we'll see if my ward and stake leadership will be similarly tolerant.

good luck when the time comes.

redjay wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:01 am good luck when the time comes.

Much appreciated. For the past ten years I have been attending temple recommend interviews like a science experiment. If the "Spirit of Discernment" was a real thing, then surely some bishop or stake president would have noticed. But no, it simply takes nine "Yes" and five "No" answers to run through the temple recommend questions. So far the experiment has consistely shown that if you go in with a smiling face and stick to those fourteen answers you will get your recommend.

Let me disabuse anyone of any assumption that I am being nuanced in my answers. I don't want to take lightly the fact of my unmitigated lying during the temple recommend interview. The only questions that I can absolutely answer truthfully are:

• Do you live the law of chastity? Yes, I'm stil in favor of the promises I made to be faithful to my wife
• Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations? No, this is entirely irrelevant, luckily.
• Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances? Ironically, yes I do feel worthy based on my personal self aggrandizement.

Redjay has been exposed to the scrutiny of ward leadership and I can only wish him well. I have heard stories of both good and bad interactions with bishops after a faith transition. We can only hope that Redjay, and all the rest of us, can find a comfortable way to continue interacting with the believers in our lives.

redjay wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:06 am 5...4...3...2...1.. DW and I invited to meet with the SP tomorrow during the 3 hour block. Coincidence

Yeah, it happened to me too. Here's the thing, I have attended the Episcopal church a few months including meeting with the Rector (Bishop) for lunch a few times. If there was a "member" that was Episcopal and he was on a New Order Episcopal site making comments, he would never be called in and confronted, never.

Why is the LDS church so insecure they feel the need to do this? Why do they feel the need to confront constantly? I know my thoughts, just wondering what yours might be.

Grace2Daisy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:48 pm If there was a "member" that was Episcopal and he was on a New Order Episcopal site making comments, he would never be called in and confronted, never.

Why is the LDS church so insecure they feel the need to do this? Why do they feel the need to confront constantly? I know my thoughts, just wondering what yours might be.

My best guess is a combination of these:

• Culture: Professed belief in fundamental tenets is the most important in-group marker
• Culture: Low respect for personal boundaries
• Policy: Leaders questioning members about beliefs is codified in TR interviews, so there's precedent
• Doctrine: Lack of belief is taught to be spiritual illness

Grace2Daisy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:48 pm

redjay wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:06 am 5...4...3...2...1.. DW and I invited to meet with the SP tomorrow during the 3 hour block. Coincidence

Why is the LDS church so insecure they feel the need to do this? Why do they feel the need to confront constantly? I know my thoughts, just wondering what yours might be.

I think you answered your own question when you said insecure. Any non-conformity is a rotten apple with the potential to spoil the barrel.

Therefore it is for the greater good - all manner of atrocities are made possible in the name of the greater good, not least genocide. But then evils like genocide are made possible when the people you are killing are seen as the enemy and lesser beings (just like apostates). You also require charismatic leaders at the top and a lower level of leaders who have the mindset of an administrator.

However, that is a very cynical view. My own experience is that, on the whole, my local leaders in the UK are, and have been over the years, super people.