NOM

Sam Young’s growing collection of Priesthood Interview stories deserves its own thread:

http://protectldschildren.org/read-the-stories/

Reading these reminds me why this practice needs to end immediately. Never again should a minor be left alone with a Priesthood Authority for a worthiness Interview - some of these stories will turn your stomach.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:37 am Sam Young’s growing collection of Priesthood Interview stories deserves its own thread:

http://protectldschildren.org/read-the-stories/

Reading these reminds me why this practice needs to end immediately. Never again should a minor be left alone with a Priesthood Authority for a worthiness Interview - some of these stories will turn your stomach.

Wow. Powerful. I'm still reading through some of them and they are heartbreaking.

I honestly do not know why the church has not stopped these types of interviews (just for their OWN protection as that's what the leaders are usually concerned about). If I still had kids of the age where these interviews took place, I'd be one of the parents insisting that either I or my husband sit in.

LDS parents are still so very naive and trusting. Where else do parents allow their young son or daughter to be alone in a closed door room with a grown man who may ask them sexually explicit questions?

Thanks for posting this.

AllieOop wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:50 am I honestly do not know why the church has not stopped these types of interviews (just for their OWN protection as that's what the leaders are usually concerned about). If I still had kids of the age where these interviews took place, I'd be one of the parents insisting that either I or my husband sit in.

Because they see themselves and the leaders they call as inherently good and guided by god. Because they figure that whatever they have done, whatever they say, and whatever they feel must be god-guided because they are confident in their calling.

Because they see these interviews as essential tools in accomplishing what they want to do. They are incredibly coercive mechanisms for shaming and guilting people into doing what they want them to do. They see the guilt and the shame as fundamentally necessary for repentance.

Sure there are a few problems, a few mistakes made by leaders, a few cases in which leaders are excessive, or even downright abusive (according to their counting), but they're far more concerned about the status of the ninety-and-one (or even then twenty-and-nine) who might be manipulated into doing what they want than they are about the nine who are harmed and go astray.

They're not going to give up these practices, and the obsession over a warped sexual purity, easily.

Jeffret wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:44 am

AllieOop wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:50 am I honestly do not know why the church has not stopped these types of interviews (just for their OWN protection as that's what the leaders are usually concerned about). If I still had kids of the age where these interviews took place, I'd be one of the parents insisting that either I or my husband sit in.

Because they see themselves and the leaders they call as inherently good and guided by god. Because they figure that whatever they have done, whatever they say, and whatever they feel must be god-guided because they are confident in their calling.

Because they see these interviews as essential tools in accomplishing what they want to do. They are incredibly coercive mechanisms for shaming and guilting people into doing what they want them to do. They see the guilt and the shame as fundamentally necessary for repentance.

Sure there are a few problems, a few mistakes made by leaders, a few cases in which leaders are excessive, or even downright abusive (according to their counting), but they're far more concerned about the status of the ninety-and-one (or even then twenty-and-nine) who might be manipulated into doing what they want than they are about the nine who are harmed and go astray.

They're not going to give up these practices, and the obsession over a warped sexual purity, easily.

I agree with all you wrote above, Jeffret. It's all about control. The leaders are almost in a panic over keeping control over the youth and this next generation as they are loosing many of them.

Control them with fear and guilt....powerful tools.

But if there was ever a time this practice could be ended, it is in the age of the #MeToo movement. The way I see it, there is a window of opportunity before society (unfortunately) begins focusing on other things. I think Sam Young's timing is impeccable - but I fear too few members are concerned enough for it to have much of an impact. It hasn't seemed to have caught hold with the media.

As I said in another thread though, if some youth ever had a recording of an interview like those described in some of these stories - that could blow up real fast and cause some much needed change real quick. There are only a few things the Church fears enough to cause changes, but embarrassing publicity is one of them. A viral video of a bishop asking pervy questions of a teenage girl in a worthiness interview, or a recording of a bishop telling a rape victim to seek repentance for their part in what happened - that could force them to make some changes.

Someone should turn these stories into a coffee table book layered among black and white pictures of burlap covered walls, cold block walls painted white in the bishops office, and dilapidated dirty bathrooms. A nervous child sitting outside the bishop's office door with a grim look of despair.

Total contrast to the public appearance the church puts out of beautiful landscaped temples, impeccably perfect families, and wildly abundant wholesomeness dressed in Sunday's best.

I'm venting a little bit about these priesthood interview stories, since it seems to me that there is no revelation any where in the church voted on by common consent of the church that authorizes/requires bishops to do prying priesthood interviews/confessions.

I just need did a quick scan of the entire canonized works of the church for - "judge, judge of Israel, confession", I can't find anything requiring confessions to bishops / stake presidents during this earth life. I did find several verses that stated the 12 apostles or Moses or Christ would be judges in Israel at the judgement seat of God after we are dead. And in association with D&C 132 (polygamy), what ever Joseph Smith forgive on earth must be forgiven by God in heaven, this seems to be be part of the 2nd anointing to have an assurance in this earth life that your sins are forgiven, but as worded it is NOT a requirement to go the brethren to be judged or do a confession, it is optional.

There is also D&C 107:72 which says High Priests are to judge in Israel if charges for transgression are brought before him, but again I can't find anything that authorizes high priests to conduct prying interviews for anyone (adults or youth) if no charges are brought!

If any one knows of any canonized revelations that exist where we have to go to priesthood authority to submit to prying interviews let me know, I may have missed something.

I've been following with horror the trial and sentencing of Larry Nassar. The stories of the vulnerable girls he molested are heartbreaking and enraging. It baffles me how LDS leadership at any level can miss the implications as far as our youth's safety and their own liability. It BAFFLES me.

One of my kids was kept from being ordained a priest for almost a year for [one of the usual reasons]. I am torn up with guilt now for letting him go through the weekly -- weekly! -- interviews with our bishop to help him become "worthy". He was a kid who leaned toward scrupulosity anyway, and I just . . . regret so much that I was a part of that process. I think Sam Young picked the absolute right moment to move against these interviews. I am dubious about his success on an organizational level, but even raising parental awareness and getting some leaders on board is a win.

el-asherah wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:26 pmIf any one knows of any canonized revelations that exist where we have to go to priesthood authority to submit to prying interviews let me know, I may have missed something.

I went down this path once also: Trying to find some scriptural reference for "confession".

I believe someone on Reddit referenced one of the scriptures in the D&C that talks about confessing to your "brethren" or something like that. I remember reading the reference and thinking: "That sounds like all the "good ol' boys" getting together, getting drunk on "sacrament wine" and trying to one-up each other "confessing" all the awesome "sins" they've committed."

Needless to say, if I remember correctly, I asked this question on multiple DAMU boards, and never got a real scriptural reference for an answer. Confession to an "ecclesiastical leader" is not scriptural. Like all things in mormonism, it was plagiarized from somewhere else, and made worse. (At least the catholic version of confession is "supposed to be" confidential.)


Oh, and back on topic: I read one of the stories Sam has collected. It made me queasy, and that's all I could take. I won't be reading any more of them, I just can't do it. The awfulness is just too much for me. I have my own stories of how awful these interviews were, but nothing anywhere near as abusive as the many of the stories Sam is collecting. Yeah, it damaged me for my entire mormon career, and will probably have repercussions for the rest of my life, but that probably happened to most mormons, whether they realize it or not.

I hope what Sam is doing can make a difference, and if what he says is true, it is making a difference in small ways in a stake here or there. Unfortunately, I still think mormonism is too small for the general public to really care beyond that. I hope I'm wrong.

I read today that he's gotten an interview with his stake president. He scheduled the meeting to discuss the stories he's collected and his petition, but I don't think it's going to go the way he thinks. But who knows, maybe he'll get lucky and his stake president hasn't been contacted by Dallin Oaks, and he really does want to listen instead of scheduling his disciplinary council.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:42 pm

el-asherah wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:26 pmIf any one knows of any canonized revelations that exist where we have to go to priesthood authority to submit to prying interviews let me know, I may have missed something.

I went down this path once also: Trying to find some scriptural reference for "confession".

I went looking for anything to do with worthiness interviews recently, and found no scriptural support whatsoever. It's all policy.

I also found that the interview questions have been almost exclusively expanded over time.

I also found that the notion of worthiness in common discourse has very little to do with scriptural notions of worthiness, which mean penitent and lacking rebellion.

Controlling members has resulted in an awful lot of drift in policy and discourse. Some would say doctrine, but the results are so far away from anything scriptural that I refuse to call them doctrine.

Reuben wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:10 pm

wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:42 pm

el-asherah wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:26 pmIf any one knows of any canonized revelations that exist where we have to go to priesthood authority to submit to prying interviews let me know, I may have missed something.

I went down this path once also: Trying to find some scriptural reference for "confession".

I went looking for anything to do with worthiness interviews recently, and found no scriptural support whatsoever. It's all policy.

I also found that the interview questions have been almost exclusively expanded over time.

I also found that the notion of worthiness in common discourse has very little to do with scriptural notions of worthiness, which mean penitent and lacking rebellion.

Controlling members has resulted in an awful lot of drift in policy and discourse. Some would say doctrine, but the results are so far away from anything scriptural that I refuse to call them doctrine.

Yep, all scriptural references for repenting of sins seem to be renouncing your sins, but to priesthood authority is not mentioned.

Mormonism - the religion where the brethren can just make stuff up and you must obey.

The intrusive prying interviews just need to stop, it is damaging peoples lives, and placing the brethren in the position of telling God what he needs to do. There is no revelation authorizing it.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:42 pm Oh, and back on topic: I read one of the stories Sam has collected. It made me queasy, and that's all I could take. I won't be reading any more of them, I just can't do it. The awfulness is just too much for me. I have my own stories of how awful these interviews were, but nothing anywhere near as abusive as the many of the stories Sam is collecting. Yeah, it damaged me for my entire mormon career, and will probably have repercussions for the rest of my life, but that probably happened to most mormons, whether they realize it or not.

I can understand not wanting to read the stories - I too find them deeply disturbing. But I think all of us need to force ourselves to read at least a few of them, so we remember why this practice needs to end. At Church it’s easy to think these interviews are hunky dory, because that’s what everyone around you thinks. I think we all need to be reminded how much incalculable damage this practice has done, and why it needs to end immediately. I think we all need to confront just how much evil has been done with these interviews.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:37 am Sam Young’s growing collection of Priesthood Interview stories deserves its own thread:

http://protectldschildren.org/read-the-stories/

Reading these reminds me why this practice needs to end immediately. Never again should a minor be left alone with a Priesthood Authority for a worthiness Interview - some of these stories will turn your stomach.

Has Sam Young been contacted by his SP regarding a court (excommunication for Apostasy)?

Just saw this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... y_need_to/

Does anyone know more about it? I've read through the comments and it appears this is happening.

ETA:
Found this (I think it's posted by Sam?):
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... _stop_not/

It's now official. The church wants me to stop. Not gonna happen. (self.exmormon)

submitted 4 days ago by Invisibles_Cubit

I want to the church to stop. We are at loggerheads.

I am not going to stop calling out for the Church to stop.

Every other church in the country has now implemented 21st century protections for their children.

It's high time for the Mormon church to enter the modern century.

The longer they wait, the more kids they are going to scar. The longer they postpone, the worse they are going to look.

My leaders say that I'm sullying the good name of the church. No, my friendly leaders, what we do to our children sullies the good name of the church.

If you are so concerned about the Church's reputation, call for immediate changes! Otherwise, it's reputation is going to be trashed by its own self.

The following article was posted last night by the Houston Chronicle. It will be in print this coming Sunday.

Major media coverage is going to keep coming and coming and coming.

P.S. Last nights meeting lasted 3 hours. I'm still a member. An apostate according to the SP. I hope to write an article about it tonight.

Article mentioned:
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/ho ... 524563.php

Here's more information about his meeting with his Stake President and Bishop:

https://invisiblescubit.wordpress.com/2 ... -apostate/

From the meeting:

Then the Stake President launched into his agenda.

SP: Sam, do you want to be a member of the Church?

ME: Yes.

SP: Sam, are you an apostate?

ME: No.

SP: You are an apostate!

ME: No, I’m not. I’m speaking out about the need to change a policy.

SP: You are an apostate!

He then flipped to the definition of apostasy in Handbook 1:

“Apostasy refers to members who repeatedly act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders.”

SP: Sam, are you an apostate?

ME: No. I’m not speaking out against the Church of its leaders. I’m speaking out against a policy.

SP: You are an apostate.

He ended up reading the definition of apostasy a few more times. It quickly became obvious that there was no debating this issue. I had been officially declared apostate by the official Church representative.

SP: You can’t continue speaking in public about this. We will have to protect the good name of the church.

"Protect the good name of the Church"? By vilifying a guy who wants middle aged men to stop asking kids alone behind closed doors if they play with themselves ? If they were really concerned about protecting the good name of the Church they'd stop with the worthiness interviews.

I am beyond disgusted with the Church's reaction to this. Rather than admit it's a valid concern, they label Brother Young an apostate and threaten to bring the hammer of a "Court of Love" down on him. Sure, he kicked the hornet's nest - but it needed to be kicked.

Fifi de la Vergne wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:49 pm I've been following with horror the trial and sentencing of Larry Nassar. The stories of the vulnerable girls he molested are heartbreaking and enraging. It baffles me how LDS leadership at any level can miss the implications as far as our youth's safety and their own liability. It BAFFLES me.

One of my kids was kept from being ordained a priest for almost a year for [one of the usual reasons]. I am torn up with guilt now for letting him go through the weekly -- weekly! -- interviews with our bishop to help him become "worthy". He was a kid who leaned toward scrupulosity anyway, and I just . . . regret so much that I was a part of that process. I think Sam Young picked the absolute right moment to move against these interviews. I am dubious about his success on an organizational level, but even raising parental awareness and getting some leaders on board is a win.

Fifi, I couldn't agree more. With all that happened this year with Larry, Matt Lauer, Roy whatever from Alabama, #me too, and on and on and on--how could the churh be SO DAMN STUPID? Sam Young is a genius, his timing couldn't be better or more inspired. And yet, the church is dumb enough to fight him, thus drawing MORE ATTENTION to his cause. Truly baffling, as you said.

And I'm so sorry you had to go through that with your son and for the guilt you are feeling now. You were a victim of some truly sick and powerful brainwashing.

el-asherah wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:19 pm Yep, all scriptural references for repenting of sins seem to be renouncing your sins, but to priesthood authority is not mentioned.

Nor the requirement to tell sexual positions or number of orgasms. I can kinda wrap my head around the idea of getting the person to confess their sins, but the necessity of asking some 14 year old how many fingers they use to masturbate? No. Just no, there is not reason to ask except for prurient intent.

I am in awe of Sam's resolve on this. Reading the stories and seeing his leadership's reaction has opened up some emotional scars I thought were healed. I haven't been this angry at the church in a while. I wasn't abused physically in any way by these types of interviews, but I was made to feel broken for a long long time.

I signed his petition, and posted on FB that if Sam is considered an Apostate then I should be too, and if he gets x'd, then I should too. So far none of my mormon friends liked or responded to it. So is life.

Over on Reddit there has been talk of apologists planting fake stories in Sam’s collection in an attempt to discredit his work - “I submitted a fake story, how do we know they aren’t all fake?” sort of thing. Really upsets me, because I know stories like the ones Sam is collecting are true. My experience wasn’t as bad as some he has received, but I was asked probing, inappropriate questions about my sexual behavior as a teen in interviews with the bishop beginning at about 14. Honest answers to those questions led to periodic meetings with the bishop where my most secret, personal, private behaviors were discussed and I had all kinds of shame and guilt as a result. I’m lucky I wasn’t really messed up by it, and who knows, maybe I am more than I realize.

Anybody planting fake stories to discredit Sam is a creep, unequivocally and without question. The horrific amount of pain in some of those stories should not be mocked with that kind of disgusting deception.