NOM

Church was a real winner yesterday. We had a high councilman speak for over 45 minutes on obedience to leaders. He told us that Deacons Quorum Presidents receive revelation that should be heeded by their quorums. He told us the time his bishop received revelation for him that his wife should be a SAHM. And how he was made a bishop at age 30 (made me want to cry for his congregation, he must have been a pleasure to work with). I read a book about cats with my preschooler.

Gospel Doctrine was all about…Agency! I was trying not to laugh too much. The mental gymnastics these people engage in... Everyone has agency, but we're foreordained to be noble ones, but not Satan, Satan had agency, but he was just naturally so bad he had to oppose god, isn't it great we have agency to choose god's plan (to follow our leaders no matter what), and Satan is REAL and wants your agency so watch out. So nonsensical, but what was really interesting was how excited and involved everyone was. I can't remember the last time I saw this much class participation.

In RS we talked about fear and doubt and how they are bad and how to get rid of them - that's right folks, read your Book of Mormon! And how do you know where a good place to give to charity or do good works is? If you get warm feelings then it is a good charity. Who knew?

Here's the thing: I've griped to my husband about the garbage the church teaches and he keeps telling me I'm mistaken, it's just misinformed people. And then we have a day like yesterday, and I honestly don't have to say much. The church has done its job by showing and confirming to my husband exactly what I've been talking about. This was a message straight from the Stake President, given by a high councilman, who was never corrected by the bishop. The SS lesson is from the manual. The RS lesson was based on a GC talk. This is coming straight from the top and I'm not using hyperbole or making any of it up. And it's garbage.

Oh, and my oldest informed me yesterday that Jesus didn't make wine, he made grape juice. It just startled me, because we pretty much never talk about Jesus at home (except maybe when we sing Christmas songs…or at the end of the prayer over the food).

Your post reminded me of my mom's favorite GC talk from Maxwell in 1995, where he says in his conclusion:

the submission of one’s will is really the only uniquely personal thing we have to place on God’s altar. The many other things we “give,” brothers and sisters, are actually the things He has already given or loaned to us. However, when you and I finally submit ourselves, by letting our individual wills be swallowed up in God’s will, then we are really giving something to Him! It is the only possession which is truly ours to give!

But, how do we submit to the will of the Heavenly Father? In the talk he actually mentions a lot of real, good stuff, but ultimately submission to "priesthood authority" is the only way. The GAs can give nice flowery talks because people like that high councilman (and Oaks) will make it clear that God's will can only be found in men ordained by the Brighamite Mormon Church.

This stuff is so frustrating, but our TBM loved ones can't see it AT ALL.

Hang in there Merrie Miss, we are here with you.

Wow! What a Sunday. Blind obedience to agency It almost funny...except that it's real life.

I'm really glad I don't have to do mental gymnastics anymore. They were very emotionally and spiritually exhausting. I hope your DH can eventually see things for how they really are.

The agency thing makes perfect sense, to a point. You can surrender your agency to God or to Satan. If you surrender it to God by keeping the commandments, he makes you free. If you surrender it to Satan by breaking the commandments, he makes you his slave.

How does surrendering your agency to God make you free? Well, there are still tons of choices to make, for one thing. And it keeps you from serving sin, like when you're restricted by addictions, lies, unwanted babies, STDs, or a jail cell.

All good so far.

So you get great benefits, and even freedom, from keeping the basic commandments and the spirit of the Word of Wisdom. Cool! Now, what about all the rest of the Mormon commandments? How do they make you free?

Tithing? You can go to the temple. A shot at Celestial glory. Freedom later, I guess? Is that really future freedom, or just different choices? Let's wedge it into our discussion framework and call it freedom.

The letter of the Word of Wisdom, or what passes for the letter according to church leaders? See above.

Family history work? Freedom from ancestors giving you dirty looks in the afterlife, maybe. Or roll this into a shot at Celestial glory.

Missionary work? See above.

Home teaching? Uh... also a shot at Celestial glory, I guess.

Scripture study? Prayer? A bunch of intangibles that have to do with commandments, relationship with God, etc. You can make these two work without defaulting to a shot at Celestial glory.

It keeps going like this. You end up mostly with "a shot at Celestial glory," which somehow gives you freedom in the afterlife. Ah, and I just remembered having the Spirit more, which helps you know the will of God, so you can follow it, which leads to more freedom. (I think we can ignore any enabling power it might have, which is moot for this discussion.)

A picture emerges of a God who gets you to obey now by holding your eternity hostage. The church makes obedience urgent using guilt and by holding your social standing hostage. And that's how agency works!

You don't feel that it works like this unless you don't want to follow the Mormon commandments. You don't feel the coercion if you submit. I think most teenagers feel it. I did when I stopped believing. The only time I felt as trapped was when I was being bullied at school. If I had had to put up with church five days a week instead of one, I would have started having fleeting thoughts about stepping into moving traffic again.

And that's how agency works!

MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:08 pm
Oh, and my oldest informed me yesterday that Jesus didn't make wine, he made grape juice. It just startled me, because we pretty much never talk about Jesus at home (except maybe when we sing Christmas songs…or at the end of the prayer over the food).

I had a hard moment with my wife a while ago over my oldest telling me that wine was "poison" after church one day. I corrected him, and told him that wine was actually seen by many to be healthy in moderation, and that he shouldn't judge people for drinking it. She didn't like that.

I am struggling with my family continuing attendance. I would be fine with it if we could all be on the same page, could talk about the issues at home, talk about what we were going to believe and not believe etc. But this dance of me feeling frustrated, others feeling like I am too harsh in my feelings, me checking out, then reengaging only for others to check out when I try to engage is mind numbing. I can see so much mental gymnastics, but nobody else can because they are busy flipping around on the uneven bars.

At the risk of causing more disruption in your home lives, allow me to be offer some pedantic counter-apologetics to your respective children.

MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:08 pm Oh, and my oldest informed me yesterday that Jesus didn't make wine, he made grape juice. It just startled me, because we pretty much never talk about Jesus at home (except maybe when we sing Christmas songs…or at the end of the prayer over the food).

Grape juice was only possible after George Welch invented a pasteurization process in the 1800s. This is where "Welch's Grape Juice" comes from since grape juice would insist on fermenting itself badly within a day of the grapes being removed from the vine. Grape juice simply did not exist before the 19th century short of squeezing the juice of fresh picked grapes directly into your mouth. Even then, it was excessively tart and George Welch added sugar to make it into what we enjoy today. And it still requires refrigeration to prevent bacteria from fermenting it in the nastiest way possible.

Emower wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:31 am I had a hard moment with my wife a while ago over my oldest telling me that wine was "poison" after church one day. I corrected him, and told him that wine was actually seen by many to be healthy in moderation, and that he shouldn't judge people for drinking it. She didn't like that.

Wine and beer were a way to store carbohydrate calories long term, especially in an environment where clean water was not easily available and refrigeration was impossible. This was the universal status of the entire history of humans on earth up until the mid 19th century. Technically, wine is poisonous in sufficient quantities. But everything on this planet wil poison you in sufficient quantities. However, alcohol prevents most bacteria from forming and was a safe way to carry liquids when water was unreliable. How do you think travellers and sailors kept hydrated? It wasn't by relying on clean water.

The Word of Wisdom restriction on alcohol, coffee, and tea could only be implemented after we had access to refrigeration and reliably clean water. Heber J. Grant made it a temple recommend requirement in the 1920s and it would have been a dangerous, life-threatening risk before that time.

Corsair wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:54 am Grape juice was only possible after George Welch invented a pasteurization process in the 1800s. This is where "Welch's Grape Juice" comes from since grape juice would insist on fermenting itself badly within a day of the grapes being removed from the vine.

This is very true, though the timeline is a bit exaggerated. Depending upon the conditions in which the grapes sit after picking. Or what state they're in when they're picked. We've sometimes had ours sitting around our house a day or so before processing them. They don't necessarily ferment badly in a day. They do start fermenting quickly. Much more so than other fruits or berries. The skin attracts and retains the bacteria that lead to alcoholic fermentation and the ready sugars supply the rest of ingredients.

There are other fermentation processes besides the alcoholic ones. Some of these include kombucha, kefir, lacto-bacillus, and chocolate. Real ginger ale, root beers, and others can fall into these categories. We've made a number of these drinks. I've made a lacto-bacillus (low-alcohol) ginger ale that I've bottled and stored in a cool location for weeks. My wife has done something similar with apple juice, though it has to be kept cooler and drunk sooner. We've also done it with juice from our grape vines. It does the low-alcohol, lacto-bacillus thing quite well, but with the grapes the process continues rapidly. If left a few weeks, the alcohol process starts taking over. Some of our bottles got very explosive, breaking the bottom off, or creating great fountains when opened. Some of them got quite alcoholic. The natural state of grape juice is wine. Or vinegar. There is a reason people all over the world discovered wine.


Besides, if Jesus turned water into grape juice, the scriptural account would make no sense.

the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”

It's really hard to see how this makes any sense if the wine was just grape juice. There's a pretty big difference between what we know as grape juice and wine. I have a hard time believing the master of the banquet would have gotten them confused. Even as drunk as he might be at that time, the point of the story is he recognizes this as the really good stuff. The stuff they had been drinking was wine, making them at least a bit drunk. But now Jesus is bringing out the really good stuff, after they guests are already at least a little buzzed if not trending towards drunk. It's hard to see how the master would've mistaken grape juice for choice wine.


I think the really miracle here might be that Mormons know exactly what the scriptures say and exactly what happened without ever having read it.

Now that this thread is on a wine/grape juice tangent...

I just want to know one little thing: Where can I acquire "grape juice" that gets me drunk? There are plenty of examples in the bible where folks drank this so-called "grape juice" and got drunk.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:45 pm Now that this thread is on a wine/grape juice tangent...

I just want to know one little thing: Where can I acquire "grape juice" that gets me drunk? There are plenty of examples in the bible where folks drank this so-called "grape juice" and got drunk.

Sounds like one could adhere to the word of wisdom with said grape juice.

nibbler wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:31 am

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:45 pm Now that this thread is on a wine/grape juice tangent...

I just want to know one little thing: Where can I acquire "grape juice" that gets me drunk? There are plenty of examples in the bible where folks drank this so-called "grape juice" and got drunk.

Sounds like one could adhere to the word of wisdom with said grape juice.

Exactly!

Bishop-Dude-Bro: Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?
Fluffy: Yes.
Bishop-Dude-Bro: What about the other day when you were drunk at the ward party?
Fluffy: Oh, I was just drinking "biblical grape juice".

There are plenty of instances in the Book of MORmON where people get plastered off of "grape juice" too...

wtfluff wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:24 am

nibbler wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:31 am

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:45 pm Now that this thread is on a wine/grape juice tangent...

I just want to know one little thing: Where can I acquire "grape juice" that gets me drunk? There are plenty of examples in the bible where folks drank this so-called "grape juice" and got drunk.

Sounds like one could adhere to the word of wisdom with said grape juice.

Exactly!

Bishop-Dude-Bro: Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?
Fluffy: Yes.
Bishop-Dude-Bro: What about the other day when you were drunk at the ward party?
Fluffy: Oh, I was just drinking "biblical grape juice".

There are plenty of instances in the Book of MORmON where people get plastered off of "grape juice" too...

The best TBM mental gymnast response I've heard regarding alcohol. "It's not evil, it's simply currently forbidden to us."

Kishkumen wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:02 am The best TBM mental gymnast response I've heard regarding alcohol. "It's not evil, it's simply currently forbidden to us."

Haha, excellent! Can't wait until heroin and cocaine are no longer "forbidden to us."

Oh, wait, prescription heroin (opioids) are already non-forbidden, you just have to know the right "doctor".



Edited To Add: This "currently forbidden" "TBM-Logic" again proves that the Word of Wisdom has absolutely nothing to do with "health" and everything to do about obedience...

Kishkumen wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:02 am The best TBM mental gymnast response I've heard regarding alcohol. "It's not evil, it's simply currently forbidden to us."

Yes, alcohol is forbidden. I would respond, "Forbidden by whom?" I understand the Christian desire to follow Jesus Christ. In Mormonism this means following the current president of the church. If your inspiration differs from that individual then you are wrong by definition. Did God really tell us that green tea would prevent you from receiving the ordinances of salvation?

wtfluff wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:08 am Edited To Add: This "currently forbidden" "TBM-Logic" again proves that the Word of Wisdom has absolutely nothing to do with "health" and everything to do about obedience...

If you would just have faith the size of a fluffy marshmallow, you would understand how very important this forbiddenness is. It will only bring you blessings of joy to follow obediently.

Kishkumen wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:02 am The best TBM mental gymnast response I've heard regarding alcohol. "It's not evil, it's simply currently forbidden to us."

This is exactly the line of argument my husband uses for everything. All church rules, policy, etc. is simply what we are "currently" supposed to do or not be doing.

Corsair wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:28 am Yes, alcohol is forbidden. I would respond, "Forbidden by whom?" I understand the Christian desire to follow Jesus Christ. In Mormonism this means following the current president of the church. If your inspiration differs from that individual then you are wrong by definition. Did God really tell us that green tea would prevent you from receiving the ordinances of salvation?

And something along these lines is generally my response. He then responds that I agreed to all of this in the covenants I made, beginning with baptism. Which of course leads us to the fact that an eight year old in no way can know or understand the nature of their decision in either mortal or eternal terms. This makes him extremely uncomfortable. All in all, it ends up being a fruitless conversation.

My husband has no issue with Jesus drinking wine, just us. Different times, different rules.

All in all, it was not a bad Sunday. Except maybe 45 minutes from a high councilor. I don't care what the topic is, there's no one I want to get a lecture from at church for 45 minutes.

MoPag wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:19 pm Wow! What a Sunday. Blind obedience to agency It almost funny...except that it's real life.

Yeah, it's just too funny. I wasn't upset about it, if anything I appreciated the two lessons being taught back to back. My husband totally agrees it's stupid, but, but....it's the church and the church can't be wrong, except when it is, but it's a good message, and it's true, and...just stupid lessons? Round and round we go.

Some Sundays I want to come home and go on the rampage, but this time, I didn't really say much. I didn't have to. I just smiled.

MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:51 pm He then responds that I agreed to all of this in the covenants I made, beginning with baptism. Which of course leads us to the fact that an eight year old in no way can know or understand the nature of their decision in either mortal or eternal terms. This makes him extremely uncomfortable. All in all, it ends up being a fruitless conversation.

Its funny how much we are held to without understanding really. Baptism, the temple, callings, substaining.... its like a little kid who agrees to tell the truth but only if we promise not to get mad.

Maybe make him promise to not complain about what you have planned, only tell him that it will make you happy. Then let him know he promised to paint the house and watch chick flicks all weekend. After all, he promised!

I’m headed to Nevada in a few weeks. Is marijuana against the WoW? It is legal there.

2bizE wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:55 am I’m headed to Nevada in a few weeks. Is marijuana against the WoW? It is legal there.

It depends on your bishop. Some will allow it grudgingly, and some will not sign your temple recommend if you enjoyed those Gummi Bear edibles. I would not advertise an interest even if the local bishop is not opposed.

MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:59 pm All in all, it was not a bad Sunday. Except maybe 45 minutes from a high councilor. I don't care what the topic is, there's no one I want to get a lecture from at church for 45 minutes.

Exactly. Why do they do this?

Can't end that meeting early, so I'm going to talk until the clock runs out even though I ran out of stuff to say in the first 5 minutes.