NOM

So it's been a couple of years since I sent the email and laid down the law that we wanted no church related contact. Just a few days ago we attended the funeral of a friend at the old ward and tonight we have stake missionaries on our doorstep. They came with an HP that I used to home teach, one of the old timers in the neighborhood. He's a nice guy, more genuine than most, served a mission with his DW a few years ago, pretty much a zealot. He asked if just he could stop by sometime and talk to me. Now, at this point I was ready to shut him down, but then I thought, well, okay bro, if you want to talk, let's talk. So we'll see if he calls me sometime to stop by, I'm pretty sure he will.

Ultimately I know it's just a waist of time to have the conversation with a zealous TBM because they will just see me as broken, lost and deceived by the devil. But I'm really feeling like I'd like to try and show this guy that I'm happier than I ever was going to church, how and why I got out and hammer on him a bit, in a nice way, with all facts, to see if it stirs any cogdis in him at all.

Anyone had any luck out there, walking down the list of facts with a TBM? What was it that had the most impact? Maybe if I can show my sincerity about how painful it was to have my shelf break and how wonderful and liberating it was to escape from it, not because of any sin against God and the church but from mental anguish over what truth really is. I'll basically bear witness and testify of the truth; how do you argue with that? Well, I know TBMs do that all the time, putting somebody of another faith down, that their special spiritual experience isn't as special or valid because they are not LDS. Anywho, I'll return and report to this thread if and when the first "talk" happens.

I think it would be interesting to ask their familiarity with Richard Bushman, and then let them watch the "the dominant narrative is not true, it can't be sustained" video clip. Then ask the follow up question "what do you think Patriarch Bushman means by that?"

As a social experiment I think that would be an interesting exercise and a window into further discussion.

https://youtu.be/uKuBw9mpV9w

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:59 pm I think it would be interesting to ask their familiarity with Richard Bushman, and then let them watch the "the dominant narrative is not true, it can't be sustained" video clip. Then ask the follow up question "what do you think Patriarch Bushman means by that?"

As a social experiment I think that would be an interesting exercise and a window into further discussion.

https://youtu.be/uKuBw9mpV9w

That's a great idea! What a great quote from that clip:

"The price of protecting the grandmothers was the loss of the grandsons."

The Bushman thing is good. I was just thinking of having you say something like:

"I appreciate your heartfelt concern but I don't think you're really prepared to talk with me. But if you'll read the book called "Emma Smith, Mormon Enigma" first, then I think we could have a genuine conversation."

Palerider wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:03 pm "Emma Smith, Mormon Enigma"

Thanks Palerider. I never read that one, but plan to check it out now. I do think Bushman has provided a decent starting point, staying on the side of sources from purported TBMs. I reread through the CES letter last night; version 2.0 is much improved and I learned more new things.

I also plan to start with non-historical things that led me out, more current period things like Monson's lack of direct testimony of the truth claims and things that RFM has been talking about lately with the dumbing down of miracles, the priesthood, revelation and personal revelation and the backing down from the last days narrative.

I'd like to talk about the experiment I ran for about a year to prove to myself if my life was better or worse for believing in all of it or not. I'd like to share a couple of metaphysical (formerly known as spiritual) experiences that I had during that time that were outside the scope of Mormonism. Basically, setting aside all the facts and evidence against the authenticity of all the COB truth claims, I was able to prove to myself that I didn't need the church to find true happiness, satisfaction and deep meaning in my life; that in fact, those things were enhanced 100 fold by sloughing off all the rhetoric, dogma, guilt, fear mongering and false authority of the church from my life. I'll make it very clear I did not leave the church looking for some new truths or another religion to fill the gaps; I escaped from a prison, both in mind and body.

These are just a few other ideas I've been kicking around. Really I don't know where the conversation will go, but I plan to be honest, sincere and respectful. I do not want to come across as bitter or angry. Sure I have some of those feelings because of the 40+ years I invested in the church, but it's pretty minor compared to the happiness I gained simply leaving it.

I'll also point out to my TBM friend, that my resignation email was only sent to the Bishop and stake presidency. I didn't spin up a podcast or website or protest outside the building or send an email to all my TBM friends to try and convince them it was all BS and they should leave. But alas, even though we left it, it looks like it has not left us. DW and I still have TBM family, including moms. I have a friend at work that recently revealed he is going through the faith crises. Thus I am here on NOM to share and receive experience, knowledge and wisdom. Although I've escaped the daily grind of Mormonism, culturally it's still a big part of my life here in Utah.

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:16 am

Palerider wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:03 pm "Emma Smith, Mormon Enigma"

Thanks Palerider. I never read that one, but plan to check it out now. I do think Bushman has provided a decent starting point, staying on the side of sources from purported TBMs. I reread through the CES letter last night; version 2.0 is much improved and I learned more new things.

Sounds like you're headed in a good direction. I would point out that Mormon Enigma was written by Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery, two highly thought of TBM female researchers. This is why I suggest it. both women were in good standing when the book was written.

Apparently they did a lot of those stake firesides and were invited to speak a great deal on the prophet and Emma until some church leader actually read their book, which is when those things came to a screeching halt. The problem for TBMs is that everything in the book is fact based and I have yet to hear anyone dispute it's correctness.

Update to this thread.
So it was last January when the Stake missionaries stopped by and I'd heard nothing since then from them, even though my old friend from the ward (we'll call him BroTex, since he served a senior mission there with his wife and I had even helped him fill out his online mission paperwork) said he wanted to stop by and chat sometime. I thought BroTex had given up ministering to me, but then I run into the guy at the store and we exchange a short hello how are ya. The next night he tried to stop by, but DW and I were way up on the hill in our backyard (I put in a hiking trail and small deck up there with a bench where we often go with the dogs to unwind after the work day, have a beer and watch the sunset.) I saw on the security cameras he tried to stop by, he was in ministering attire (white shirt and tie).

I was kind of sad I missed the opportunity to let him in for a chat, it was my chance to be honest with him and start up a conversation to see how he would react to my honesty about why we left the church. But now I'm thinking it might be better if I just write him a letter and lay it all out, not with any malice, but honestly and openly in a way to try and make him think about his perceptions of us, what assumptions he might have about why we don't believe it anymore, see if he'd try to find us some answers. Maybe he'll just give us a copy of the new Saints book, but I think maybe he'd make a sincere effort to do some research, even if it was just the standard church apologetics. That would be okay because then I could poke holes in those as well. But in the end I know it would likely not be productive and it would come down to just me not being stubborn and not willing to doubt my doubts and just trust the COB.

I'm thinking BroTex has got to be pretty well versed in some of the hard questions because he's served a couple of missions, one to work with prisoners and the other in Texas. I also think he's a democrat, so maybe a bit more liberal than the average TMB. I've heard a dozen lessons from the guy but he keeps it pretty simple. He's probably in his late 70's. I was also his HT for a few years. BroTex's oldest son went through a divorce a dozen years ago, wife turned out to be gay, and is now a counselor in the BR, pretty dry staunch TBM guy.

So not much fun and exciting to report on right now, but I'll return and report if BroTex stops by and I start the convo with him and or if I sit down and send him a letter; don't have his email and I don't want to log into the LDS app.

So BroTex and his ministering side kick showed up again last night after I missed them the last two attempts. I could have blown this off at the doorstep but I invited them in; it got interesting.

Just a quick recap, since this post started back in January of this year.

• I attended the funeral of friend in the local ward house. I had not been through those doors for over two years.

• BroTex is a mid 80 year old TBM who I used to HT and helped him with computer stuff, including getting he and his DWs mish papers in; he's been on 3 different missions, including Texas, thus the moniker for this thread.

• I think I believe BroTex and his younger Elder aged side kick are both ward or stake missionaries.

• I had thoughts about just sending BroTex a copy of my resignation letter or a list of questions I'd like him to get answers to, but never followed through on it.

When they showed up last night I was not prepared with anything and had no idea where it would go. I just thought I'd keep it open to any possibilities and be honest and open with them. Interesting night. For a while it was small talk about the weather. I could tell the younger Elder Sidekick was a bit uncomfortable. A bit in jest I asked them how things were in the ward and congratulated them on the two hour church. The older one asked if I was ready to come back, to which I half-joked that for me zero hours of church is the right amount.

This is where it got more interesting; BroTex responded with something about how sometimes we get offended and that can make us not want to go. That was a trigger for me that set me off on an honest and open discussion as to why I left the church. I wanted to make it very clear that being offended was not the reason we left. I explained to them that believers often assume people who leave fall into three main categories: they are lazy, they were offended or they have some sin or vice they can’t deal with. Although these may be true in some cases, it was not true for my friends who were leaving and was definitely not true for DW and me. I continued to lay out my faith transition and the long careful journey of seeking the truth. I provided real examples of past and present problems with the church and its truth claims: Here’s a few topics I touched on:

• FV versions and other foundational events vs. correlated church lesson material and what I taught on my mission. Also, Joseph F. ripping out the page from the JS history taping it back in; it upset him when he discovered it, why wouldn’t it upset me?

• JS, the seer stone and treasure digging

• DNA Evidence and the BOM, COB changing the BOM intro because no Jews in ancient America.

• Idea the native Americans were Jews was not a unique idea and was borrowed from the Book of the Hebrews

• Borrowed ideas about the priesthoods

• Plagiarized commentary on the OT and NT made up much of the JS translation of the bible, as discovered in a BYU study

• Temple ceremonies taken from the Masons, the Smith family involved in Masonry before JS was even born

• Diminished priesthood power, Erying’s dying friend and the laugh line of “Take up your bed and walk.”; all the other talks about dying friends, but no blessings of healing. Joking about it because deep down inside everyone knows it doesn’t work. Maybe some comfort but no statistical difference in major medical outcomes with prayer and PBs.

• Lack of transparency with donations, billions in assets, sneaking in changes into handbooks then claiming later it was revelation, recent hate talk by Oaks.

• Prophet more worried about the name of the church than bigger issues like sex trafficking or many other big world problems that could really use the church’s help and resources.

I’m guessing we spent over an hour, but as you know here, it’s impossible to get into any of these topics in any depth in that amount of time. I tried to just point out a few examples and told them the church’s effort to address many of these issues are in the Essays online. I didn’t ask if they had looked at them at all and I’m guessing from their responses, they have not. Most of the responses were benign, but BroTex did tell a story about a priesthood anointing and blessing he did with another bro on a burn victim, using only their fingers because the guy was burned so bad he was in a plastic bubble. He said he met the guy years later, that he was very scared up but he had recovered and thanked him for the blessing. Again, no real miracle because it was a regular recovery using best medical practices from my view. But I agreed it at least brought comfort to the mother who asked for it.
In the end I think the old guy wasn’t phased, he’s too steeped in it and has spent plenty of time listening to non-believers, nodding his head and then trying to find an edge to share a little faith promoting story. The younger guy seemed a bit uncomfortable and didn’t say much; he did say it was refreshing to have such an honest and open conversation. He tried to express that he always thinks for himself and makes his own decisions, but coming from someone plugged in the matrix, it’s just has hard to me to believe him as it is for him to believe me.
For me it felt cathartic, but I also have no expectations it made any difference for them. I gave them both a seer stone on the way out (the small geodes I shine up in my rock polisher). Now it will be interesting to see if it goes anywhere from here. Maybe we’ll be labeled as toxic, maybe BroTex will keep trying. If he comes back again, I’ll structure it better to ask some deeper questions of him, like what was suggested in this thread, try to get him to think a little bit.

Glad to hear you got to have an honest and open discussion with the stake missionaries. I've never opened up like that to any ward members but I'm lucky to work with a bunch of heathens.

Recently I did attend a reception and I made it clear to a couple ward members that I haven't had to work a Sunday in a year and a half. For some reason I delight in them knowing that I work bankers hours now and I still don't attend church. They probably thought my old shift work was due to not following my covenants, lol.

Return and Report - email to the Bishop with links to the Faith Crisis Report

So after my visit with the "ministers" last month, I was thinking about send Texas a copy of the Faith Crisis Report. In summary from the last visit, he triggered my honest open discussion about my faith crisis journey by saying "Well sometimes we get offended..." As most of you who have read the Faith Crisis report, you know that's the reason survey respondents listed as the least likely reason they left the church. Yet, TBMs think it's number one. Well, instead of sending a copy of the report to Texas, the elder minister, I decided to send it to my bishop. I say "my bishop" because I'm still a member until quitmormon get's things fixed up with Kirton/McConkie. So, without further ado, here's the email I sent my bishop today (with names removed):

Dear (former bishop friend),

Blah blah, hope you are doing well, blah blah brief update on my kids, things are awesome, blah blah.

My main purpose of this email is to share some insight with you that may help you understand where some members are with their inactivity. A few weeks ago BroTex stopped by our home with another brother from the ward. I invited them in and we chatted about the weather for a while. I congratulated them on two hour church at the beginning of the year. BroTex asked me if I was ready to come back and I told him that zero hour church has worked out very well for us. We had a bit of a chuckle and he then began to say "Well, sometimes we get offended..." I interrupted him and told him that is the false narrative that active members use when they try to come up with reasons as to why people leave the church. I told him that being offended is in fact very rarely why people leave and it was far from the reason that DW and I had left. I then spent and hour with them and tried to explain how we came to no longer believe in the Church's truth claims. I provided a few examples, both past and present, summarizing our sincere and difficult journey in seeking the truth that brought us to the hard decision we made to leave. I was as honest and open as I could be. I'm not sure how they took it, but I felt it was worth while to share it with them so they might not make too many assumptions about less and non active people they visit. I think we still parted ways as friends, at least I hope we did. BroTex is a great guy and I respect him. This is not meant to tattle on him because you already know he's a sincere stalwart when it comes to the church.

I'm not sure if a report of their visit made it back to you, but I recently came across a copy of an official report called the Faith Crisis Report. It is research that was done over a decade ago in 2011 by a group of very educated professionals (active members of the church). It's purpose was to help church leadership understand the trend of increasing membership loss and what might be done about it. I believe this report was given to Marlin Jensen who then presented it to Dieter Uchtdorf in 2013. This is an interesting correlation to the "Come, Join with Us" talk that President Uchtdorf gave in October, 2013 and seems to reflect some thoughts he may have had on this faith crisis subject matter:
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... s?lang=eng

Here are some quotes from that talk that correlate with things I read in the report:

"Sometimes we assume it is because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations."

"And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine."

This talk was certainly a move in the right direction, although he also discourages critical thinking about the problematic questions some members have by telling them to doubt their doubts before they doubt their faith. This is very akin to what I went through, struggling with facts vs. what I was taught in church and what I preached to others over 40+ years as an active member. The given narrative in the correlated manuals and lessons did not match the actual historical events, nor did the truth claims hold up for me against those facts. I tried many times to use my faith to overcome those facts, but, as the Faith Crisis Report shows, my shelf finally broke.

By having the information in the Faith Crisis Report for over a decade now, I see the church making some changes to try and address the major issues. Things like DNA evidence and the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham, Polygamy and Polyandry, multiple versions of the First Vision, etc. Some of these efforts include the revealing of the Joseph Smith seer stone, the Gospel Topic Essays, the changes in the Book of Mormon introduction and the latest book Saints.

When I read through the report, so much of what it talks about is directly applicable to what DW and I went through, also many of my friends and family members. Leaving the church because of being offended is in fact at the very bottom of the statistics as to the "why". If BroTex and others want to visit less actives and former members, I think they should know the primary reason some are struggling or have left. Making wrong assumptions could actually cause offense to those who are already otherwise feeling ostracized, misunderstood, etc.

My faith crisis goes beyond the things mentioned in the report, but many of them are in there. I'm not afraid to talk about any of it; not with any intent to offend or destroy one's faith, just to be more honest and open about it. So anyone is welcome to stop by but they should be warned So with all of this explanation, I leave you with a link to a PDF of the Faith Crisis Report. Maybe you've already seen it, but I'm pretty sure the Church has not published it for the general membership. If they have not shared it at the Stake and Bishop level, they should.
https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_ ... t_R24B.pdf

Here's another PDF that was used as supporting data for the report: Faith Crisis Chronicles.
Includes a number of qualitative narratives collected in 2013 as part of a separate survey (some of these inputs were included in the Uchtdorf report). Dieter later indicated that he read each of these narratives:
https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_ ... nts_R3.pdf

I want to be very clear that these are church based sources and not anti-mormon sources of information. I'll also say the report does not dive into details on all the issues, but does provide some testimonials from members about some topics and why they left. I respect you as a sincere leader over your flock and I think this information can be very helpful in understanding the trends and challenges members have in the information and technology age. For DW and I there are still no answers that could convince us our decision was wrong. The Essays and other apologetic materials just don't hold up for us against the facts. Upon receiving my resignation email, the Stake President said he was aware of many of the issues I was alluding to and came to a different conclusion. Having not gone point by point through all the questions and issues together, I think that too was presumptive. I think the church's efforts this past decade to be more transparent will help many stay faithful, but changing so many narratives that have been in place for so long is not easy.

I hope this information will be useful to you. You know I've always been a big time seeker of truth, sorting out the spam from the facts. I sincerely hope you and yours have an awesome Christmas and new year!

It will be interesting to see how he responds.

Palerider wrote: ↑Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:10 pm It will be interesting to see how he responds.

I will bet one-million (pinky UP) Limnah's that the answer will be: S I L E N C E.