NOM

I'm watching the broadcast. Uchtdorf is out. Oaks is in.

I'm pretty upset. This is a major 'dis' to Uchtdorf and hope of near term future 'progress' in the church.

I'm not taking this well...

Whaaaaat?

Can't say I'm surprised at all. If nothing else, this will further help to drive the church into the sidelines of extremism while the rest of the world moves on.

I'm right through there with you. I expected Uchtdorf to be demoted, deep down I knew it had to be coming...but to be replaced by Oaks?! I'm more devastated than I expected.

What kind of message does that send? Legalistic, unfeeling, dogmatic thinking over compassion and broad tent Mormonism? I don't know how else to take it.

I want nothing more than to take a step back from the church right now. I doubt I'll have the fortitude and courage to do it but I haven't wished for it this badly in a while...

In other news, Elder Bednar was seen walking up to the top of the Coronado Bridge.

Oaks in there is to bridge the gap from bad cop to good guy. It's a perfect transition strategy! He will now come across as the soft but stern good cop in preparation of taking over as Prophet, Seer, and next generation Revelator come the death of Prophet Nelson.

Uchtdorf will probably be given a traveling assignment in Russia or Siberia to usher in eternal happiness in an otherwise cold and heartless part of the Lord's Vineyard.

Daaamn... I am surprised and not surprised at the same time.

Utchdorf is the one apostle I've had some personal interaction with. I know some here feel he's as big a problem, if not moreso, than the others because he soft pedals issues. I get it, it's some valid criticism. But I'd take 12 Utchdorfs over any Oaks. I feel Utchdorf is a sincere and loving individual. This is another wrong move by church leadership IMHO.

Here's the youtube link if you're curious...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1qL2aW ... e=youtu.be

TestimonyLost wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:31 am I'm right through there with you. I expected Uchtdorf to be demoted, deep down I knew it had to be coming...but to be replaced by Oaks?! I'm more devastated than I expected.

What kind of message does that send? Legalistic, unfeeling, dogmatic thinking over compassion and broad tent Mormonism? I don't know how else to take it.

I want nothing more than to take a step back from the church right now. I doubt I'll have the fortitude and courage to do it but I haven't wished for it this badly in a while...

From the gut...

These are challenging times and we need a leader that can take on the world when it comes to religious freedoms (and we all know what the rock in the hat translates "religious freedom" into).

azflyer wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:06 am I'm watching the broadcast. Uchtdorf is out. Oaks is in.

I'm pretty upset. This is a major 'dis' to Uchtdorf and hope of near term future 'progress' in the church.

I'm not taking this well...

This is not good news for the progressive members of the church.

This message will be heard loud and clear. I'm not sure when the last time was that this was done to a counselor (like what is being done to Uchtdorf).

I have heard that Nelson and Uchtdorf didn't see eye to eye on many (most) issues. So I believe this is why he's out and Oaks is in. Oaks is a much more hard liner than Uchtdorf. Uchtdorf's voice will be greatly missed. The members have a great love for him.

AllieOop wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:41 am This message will be heard loud and clear. I'm not sure when the last time was that this was done to a counselor (like what is being done to Uchtdorf).

It's only happened once. When Joseph Fielding Smith became the President of the Church at the age of 93, he kicked out Hugh B Brown.

And it's strangely similar. Hugh B Brown had a softer tone and was more progressive. Then JFS became the President of the church at the age of 93 and named Harold B Lee, who was next in line, as his first counselor.

azflyer wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:51 am

AllieOop wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:41 am This message will be heard loud and clear. I'm not sure when the last time was that this was done to a counselor (like what is being done to Uchtdorf).

It's only happened once. When Joseph Fielding Smith became the President of the Church at the age of 93, he kicked out Hugh B Brown.

And it's strangely similar. Hugh B Brown had a softer tone and was more progressive. Then JFS became the President of the church at the age of 93 and named Harold B Lee, who was next in line, as his first counselor.

You're right (I just looked it up). Here's what I found:

- President Romney wasn't retained 30 years ago but that was due to ill health.

- But not since President Brown nearly 40 years ago has something similar to what just happened to Elder Uchtdorf occurred,

- I seem to recall a story about when Hugh B Brown was demoted, it was said, he was so demoted because he was opposed to the priesthood ban and President Lee couldn't disagree with him more.

I believe this demotion is most likely related to LBGT feelings (similar to how Brown felt about the priesthood ban).

Time will tell if Oaks and Nelson take even a harder line stance against gay issues (there has been more acceptance at times recently, but then the horrible new policy was put in place too and it was Nelson who labeled it a "revelation").

Personally, I find this delightful, mainly because it's something actually happening in the Mormon church for once. I asked my wife the other day what she thought they'd do, and she said they'd keep the same counselors. I brought up that Uchtdorf seemed like the polar opposite of Nelson and that Oaks or Bednar would be more in line with his style, and she said, "I hope not, I love Uchtdorf." Poor wife. I sent a text about it to our family thread, just pointing out that the last time this happened was the Hugh Brown demotion in 1970, and my mom was quick to say, "It's not a demotion. They're all assignments." I have a lot I could say to that, but I'm just going to leave it where it is.

May this be the event that helps progressive Mormons see just a little more clearly what the church really is.

Enoch Witty wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:56 am May this be the event that helps progressive Mormons see just a little more clearly what the church really is.

There's that but there's also the people that would be more progressive but the faith they place in the leaders of the church holds them back from being more loving and inclusive.

Can't say I'm not surprised. I think most of the family will be sad, they loved Utchdorf. Can't wait to see the conservative doubling down over the next few months, that will continue the exodus of young people. I'm sure Millennials are thrilled today.

Responding to media questions regarding the release of Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf, new member of the First Presidency, President Oaks, smugly states, "Elder Uchtdorf was too soft for this church, too liked by the sisters of this church, and too forgiving of Homosexuals in this church!" He was single handedly diluting the membership base while building up his secret base of women fans not seen since Brigham Young's day! I give President Nelson a thumbs up for his foresight, vision, and leadership to make such an obvious move to replace Dieter with me! What a brilliant move from such a fine leader as President Nelson!" When asked for a response to President Oaks' comments, Mormon church Prophet and President Russell M Nelson gave a thumbs down directed at Elder Uchtdorf"



God has a funny sense of humor doesn't he? I mean how coincidental his top two leaders of his church here on the earth look just like the grumpy muppets! You can't make this stuff up!

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:02 am God has a funny sense of humor doesn't he? I mean how coincidental his top two leaders of his church here on the earth look just like the grumpy muppets! You can't make this stuff up!

Except for the facial hair. God forbid (literally) we have any of that.

AllieOop wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:56 am Time will tell if Oaks and Nelson take even a harder line stance against gay issues (there has been more acceptance at times recently, but then the horrible new policy was put in place too and it was Nelson who labeled it a "revelation").

IIRC, Elder Oaks came very close to calling it revelation in his last conference talk.

Living in Europe, I can't help wondering what European members will think of the change.

For those keeping score at home, here is the current list of apostles and their ages:

1. Ballard, 89
2. Holland, 77
3. Uchtdorf, 77
4. Bednar, 65
5. Cook, 77
6. Christopherson, 72
7. Anderson, 66
8. Rasband, 66
9. Stevenson, 62
10. Renlund, 65

In order of seniority, Oaks is first in line after Nelson, obviously. Eyring would be between Holland and Uchtdorf. Oaks is 85 and Eyring is 84. Place your actuarial bets for the future administrations of prophets.

I don't think President Uchtdorf was removed because he was too "progressive". I think that's a pipe dream - he just projects a warmer persona than the others, and darn it, he's so charismatic how can you help but like the guy? But he wasn't going to make the Church a safe place for gays and doubters, and he never, ever, will. Mark my words, he is a company man, just a company man who manages appearances a hell of a lot better than the rest of them. What evidence do we have he was ever going to be a progressive force in the Church?

I still say he was demoted due to jealousy. There are HUGE egos at the top of this Church who don't like being upstaged by a German-accented good-looking charismatic upstart. "Progressiveness" had nothing to do with it.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:24 am I don't think President Uchtdorf was removed because he was too "progressive". I think that's a pipe dream - he just projects a warmer persona than the others, and darn it, he's so charismatic how can you help but like the guy? But he wasn't going to make the Church a safe place for gays and doubters, and he never, ever, will. Mark my words, he is a company man, just a company man who manages appearances a hell of a lot better than the rest of them. What evidence do we have he was ever going to be a progressive force in the Church?

I still say he was demoted due to jealousy. There are HUGE egos at the top of this Church who don't like being upstaged by a German-accented good-looking charismatic upstart. "Progressiveness" had nothing to do with it.

I don't disagree with your assessment of Uchtdorf, but the signal this sends has nothing to do with him personally but what he represents. He brought a softer edge and his talks were quickly adopted as talking points by more liberal members.

The message here is for all of us, that whatever we thought Uchtdorf might be signalling is definitely NOT going to happen. The church is not softening its positions, is not playing nice with liberal Mormons, so everyone needs to stop pretending as if they have an ally at the top of the church.