NOM

Question: If JS made up this whole church and BOM up then why do it in the first place? Think about it.... it really was one crazy idea. I can't imagine what JS was thinking when he decided to write a crazy long boring book, call it scripture from god found on secret ancient gold plates and sell it to people who actually believed and form a church that is still going strong almost 200 years later. How in the heck did this happen??! Do we really know what his intentions were? Who was it that really took the church into the profit making business and made it a religious empire? Was it JS or BY.... or someone or some other event? Thoughts?

Why?

Sex, Money, Power.

Yup, that's about it.

(Yes, that's over-simplification, but I believe those three words answer a lot of questions when it comes to cult-like organizational leaders.)

Talking as a career path beat manual labor. The money sex and power came with his chosen con.

He developed excellent skills in fraud during his treasure digging days.
He would con people out of their money telling them the treasure they were digging for had sunken deeper into the earth and that is why they never found the treasure. He built on that thrill he got defrauding people and created the BoM and the religion.

Because eventually he believed himself.

It's not one thing he did. He didn't sit down one day and decide to start a church with all the insane crap it had by the end. He was savant BS'er from his youth, and it all just started growing line upon line, BS upon BS.

Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him and told him to!

So he said...

SeeNoEvil wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:06 pm Question: If JS made up this whole church and BOM up then why do it in the first place? Think about it.... it really was one crazy idea. I can't imagine what JS was thinking when he decided to write a crazy long boring book, call it scripture from god found on secret ancient gold plates and sell it to people who actually believed and form a church that is still going strong almost 200 years later. How in the heck did this happen??! Do we really know what his intentions were? Who was it that really took the church into the profit making business and made it a religious empire? Was it JS or BY.... or someone or some other event? Thoughts?

Why stop there? By the end of his life he was riding a white horse around town in a military suit as a self-proclaimed Lieutenant General, brandishing a sword and had himself anointed king of the world. It wasn’t just a church, he was a megalomaniac and his narcissistic tendencies continued to escalate.

The remnant (church) we have now is just one whitewashed, diluted component of his overall fanaticism.

As said above, it started and snowballed, and the more success he had the more he believed it himself until he flamed out.

Some believe that everything Joseph said was real. Others hold to the pious fraud theory that he truly believed what he was making up. Historian Chris Smith believes that Joseph was a petty criminal from a family of petty criminals and that starting a new religion was a bold step up from bogus treasure digging schemes as a way to bring in the loot.

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/wp-con ... th2015.mp3

wtfluff wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:34 pm Why?

Sex, Money, Power.

Yup, that's about it.

(Yes, that's over-simplification, but I believe those three words answer a lot of questions when it comes to cult-like organizational leaders.)

Can it really be that simple!

2bizE wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:15 pm He developed excellent skills in fraud during his treasure digging days.
He would con people out of their money telling them the treasure they were digging for had sunken deeper into the earth and that is why they never found the treasure. He built on that thrill he got defrauding people and created the BoM and the religion.

dogbite wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:55 pm Talking as a career path beat manual labor. The money sex and power came with his chosen con.

For a simple farm boy with no formal education he definitely had an active imagination. To many hours in the barn shoveling you know what gave him way to many ideas I'd say! Maybe some schizophrenia going on?

Why did L. Ron Hubbard do it? Why did Jim Jones do it? David Koresh? There have been hundreds of these guys across the years. Members act like Joseph Smith is the only guy who ever started a church, but there have been plenty of guys just like him.

I appreciate this question, its probably number 1 on DW's list of Q's to me. I think her question is more like: Why not just live a normal life unless God really did direct the work? or How could something so good come from a con?

sparky wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:54 pm It's not one thing he did. He didn't sit down one day and decide to start a church with all the insane crap it had by the end. He was savant BS'er from his ... line upon line, BS upon BS.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:05 am I appreciate this question, its probably number 1 on DW's list of Q's to me. I think her question is more like: Why not just live a normal life unless God really did direct the work? or How could something so good come from a con?

Sure, but what about other "prophets" that DW does not believe? How about Ellen Harmon White founding the Seventh Day Adventists and claiming to be a prophet? What about Mary Baker Eddy and the Christian Scientists and her visions? Should we develop a testimony of these women who talked to God? David Koresh of the Branch Davidians claimed to be inspired by God right up to his death in a fire in Waco, Texas. He sealed his testimony with his blood. Was he conning anyone?

How about the Islamic prophet Muhammed (Peace Be Upon Him). He founded a new religion that acknowledged the Christian Bible, produced his own revealed book of scripture, participated in polygamy, and then failed to produce a good succession plan leading to rivalries that exist today. Wouldn't it have been easier if Muhammed had simply remained a successful merchant and not upended the social order of Mecca and Medina with his revelations from the angel Gabriel?

Read "Rough Stone Rolling" from Richard Bushman. It is openly sold at Deseret Book and is a fair look at the life of Joseph Smith without being a paean to his righteousness. Busman goes over most of the problems and certainly does his best to explain problems with polyandry, revelations, translation, and finances. I came away with my testimony confirmed gone, but can still acknowledge that Joseph probably did believe his own baloney. As he got older he seemed to double down on his justifications.

He saw a problem (the fractured state of Christianity), realized he had some significant talents (for influencing people and spinning BS) and quite likely thought he was indeed called of god. As others have mentioned, it's a scenario that has happened and continues to happen all the time.

Joseph was just a bit more successful than most.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:05 amI think her question is more like: Why not just live a normal life unless God really did direct the work? or How could something so good come from a con?

Live a "normal life"? When you're a conman, "normal life" is conning other people to "make your living."

Why don't NFL quarterback's live a "normal life"?

(See where I'm going here?)

Forgive me if I ruffle a few feathers here with the "cult" word (hope I can use this word) but here is an interesting article on cult leaders. I am trying to be sensitive here because I know there are some here who might not agree with the cult association and might be offended. That is not my intent to offend. I think this article is worth mentioning because I feel in this case it applies. With that being said, the author has identified and compiled a long list of what he calls dangerous character traits found in leaders of this type. Of course we weren't around JS but I suspect he had many of these traits. Anyhow, it is an interesting read and one that I think we can all identify with as knowing someone personally, read about historically or even in our current news who might exhibit many of the same behaviors. Maybe this will help in understanding how JS who is portrayed as a seemingly ordinary humble farm boy was definitely not ordinary and could have crafted such a scam and got away with it. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sp ... lt-leaders

Simple, he hated farm work! His family needed followers to take care of them.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:05 am I appreciate this question, its probably number 1 on DW's list of Q's to me. I think her question is more like: Why not just live a normal life unless God really did direct the work? or How could something so good come from a con?

This is exactly what I used to say! I just went straight to my good ole 100% sure true answer..... "God did it". I never asked could there be some other answer other than God.