Advice: Upcoming Conversation with Believing Parent of Gay Child

[Not Buying It]

So tomorrow night a friend of ours who is a believing but somewhat unorthodox Church member is going to dinner with my wife and I. She has been wanting to get together with us for a long time, she has a teenage son who experiences same sex attraction, and she says she doesn't feel like she can talk to many people about it. For several days I have been going over and over in my mind what to say to her. Obviously I need to listen first and find out what her concerns are, and that will shape where the conversation goes from there.

I have no desire to destroy her testimony, so I will only reveal my disbelief in the Church to her if I feel like I have to. But the Church is a huge part of the problem, and I need to find some gentle, non-threatening ways to convey that. Here are some ideas of things I have thought about communicating to her, I would be curious to know what the rest of you think:

• When talking with other members, LDS people always feel the need to filter whatever they say - let her know she doesn't have to do that with us, we aren't going to judge anything she says, she doesn't have to just say what she thinks a member of the Church is supposed to say. She is free to say what she really thinks.

• Let her know that her son is the most important thing - whatever guidance she gives him, she has to feel with all her heart it is the right thing for him, and not just what she thinks she is supposed to tell him, or what the people around her say she should tell him. His happiness is more important than anything anyone else tells her.

• Gently point out that per Church policy, her son can never have a fulfilling relationship with someone he is attracted to. What I want to communicate is that he could unnecessarily lead a lonely lifetime, only to have the Church change its policies in the future, and he would have wasted opportunities for relationships for no good reason. Think about all the second, third, and fourth wives when polygamy ended who got abandoned by their husbands after the Manifesto - they sacrificed their chances for having fulfilling monogamous relationships with a man so they could live the freakin' "Principle", and the Church rewarded them for their sacrifices by changing its policies and making a mockery of them. And then never talking about them again.

• Also gently pointing out that all members pick and choose which of the Brethren's pronouncements they follow - no one really believes that death should be the penalty for mixing white and black blood like Brigham Young taught, no one I know thinks the Church is under condemnation for not flooding the earth with the Book of Mormon or that the Civil Rights movement was a communist plot like Ezra Taft Benson taught - the Church itself picks and chooses which pronouncements of the Brethren it will promote and which it will ignore. She may need to do some picking and choosing when it comes to what the Brethren say about homosexuality.

Typing of this out has helped me organize my thoughts, if nothing else. Again, I don't want to destroy her testimony, but I can't in good conscience not try and help her see that the Church is going to ruin her son's life if she doesn't do something about it.

What do you all think? Thanks in advance.

[RubinHighlander]

I like your thoughts there. Obviously it may not play out the way you think, but it doesn't hurt to think through multiple possible responses. I think I'd approach it the same way though: establishing that it's a safe place to talk openly, listen carefully, offer empathy then any or all of the advice you've listed out. If your friends see that the cogdis you have suffered in the past is real pain and you understand the real pain they are experiencing, that would accomplish a lot IMO.

Where one of my DDs was gay, I never had to go through this because I was already NOMing and she was out on her own when I found out. I guess I never had the opportunity to deal with it when she was a younger teen at home because it was post first marriage and that kid was bouncing back and forth; there to too many other issues at hand. I did have the chance to talk openly to DD about the past and empathize with her situation with church and how difficult it must have been for her at times. Our relationship survived the tumult and I am good friends with her and her partner, though they live out of state.

The most important thing IMO is that those parents make their relationship with their child priority one, above the church and it's policies. If their God faults them for that, he's not worthy of worship. It will be potentially painful with cogdis, if they have faith the policy is inspired revelation. However, they should be the top authority for their family, over any priesthood leadership. I think this can tie to the recent partition about sexually related questions in priesthood interviews (this might be one you mention to them), where parents are taking back control over their families in what's allowed or not allowed with their children and local priesthood leadership.

[Corsair]

This is a good conversation to have. One of the men in my ward has a gay brother who has caused some existential heartache in his family. To the credit of his orthodox family, the belivers have have been fairly loving and accepting of their brother who announced his orientation at age 18. The parents have struggled with this, but have continued to include and love him as best as they can.

This man in my ward talked to me about it after he learned that I have a Lesbian daughter. I brought up a model of activity in the LDS church for gay members that outlines the problems. There are only three possibilies for gay members of the church:

1. Stay single and celibate, risking loneliness and existential hopelessness
2. Marry someone of the heteronormative gender, risking divorce and heartache for themselves and their family
3. Leave the church, risking family disapointment and spiritual peril

Oddly enough, The recent Mormon Stories interview with Tom Christopherson shows him literally trying all three options at various times in his life. I enjoyed the interview and Brother Christopherson is surprisingly supportive of people needing to leave the LDS faith even while he is a surprisingly believing member.

I also have to include the actions of my dear, believing wife while our Lesbian daughter got married this past summer. My wife fundamentally disagrees with the "lifestyle" of our daughter, but she has been positively admirable for the love and acceptance she has had for her and for our new daughter-in-law. She has told me her concerns and existential opposition to this relation during private conversations with me. But, my wife fully participated in the marriage ceremony and reception along with the planning. This occurred while standing against "certain extended family members" who were adamantly opposed to the marriage based on doctrinal grounds.

For a long time I had been annoyed with how my dear wife really did not want to engage with me on my own faith transition. But I have appreciated that this has also been her strategy with orthodox family members who wanted nothing to do with this Lesbian marriage ceremony. My wife has come to some unstable, but ongoing, level of peace with our daughter while still retaining her personal faith. Her own testimony towards the LDS church stands apart from these outward happenings. I suspect that LDS leadership collectively wants this to happen in LDS families while not being forced to state this openly.

[Linked]

It is tough to effectively give unorthodox advice to believers because if you are too obvious then their AADAR (Apostate Radar) goes off and undermines the credibility of anything you say or have ever said. So be careful to couch things in a believer friendly manner until you know she won't disregard what you say otherwise. Telling her you of your disbelief will kill your credibility if she is TBM.

Your bullet points all seem like they can be said from a believer's perspective if you are careful, IMHO.

WRT gay church members I have been most moved by trying to put myself in their shoes and realizing what the LDS church asks of them; it is inhumane. Maybe focus on the boy and help your friend understand what he is up against if she doesn't. Then let her motherly love take over and she can realize that she doesn't want her son to have to go through the pain of being gay and mormon.

[BriansThoughtMirror]

When talking with other members, LDS people always feel the need to filter whatever they say - let her know she doesn't have to do that with us, we aren't going to judge anything she says, she doesn't have to just say what she thinks a member of the Church is supposed to say. She is free to say what she really thinks.

Wow, if someone had said this to me any time between 10 and 15 years ago, my life might have been very different. This is a very powerful sentiment. I don't think I realized how much I was policing my own thoughts, because I policed that thought, too! It would have been very eye opening to hear someone say it out loud, especially someone I trusted. It would have been eye opening coming from anybody, though. You might want to stick with this first and just see where it goes.

Good luck!

[Jeffret]

Listening has got to be the big, big one. And sympathy. And compassion. Towards LGBT and parents.

I would leave out the comments about the church's abandonment of polygamy and the impact that had on women and children. That just confuses the issue. It's a big topic in the DAMU, but the details of it aren't well none by chapel Mormons. Polygamy is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but it tends to confuse people.

I would try to not use the Church's convoluted term "same sex attraction". It's an odd construct to begin with. It frames the topic entirely on the Church's terms and has no meaning outside of an entirely Mormon based reference frame. I would use the accepted terms of gay, lesbian, bi, transgender, LGBT, and sexual orientation. This alone demonstrates an acceptance of LGBT people, of who they are and who they say they are.

I would try to be personal in my comments, talk about how I personally would feel in such a situation. Demonstrate compassion to your friend and her situation and to your own kids. Demonstrate passion for the well-being of your own. "When I first started trying to understand these issues about LGBT people, I kept coming back to what I would do if I faced that situation. I thought long and hard about what I would do if one of my children came out to me. I realized that I hoped I would do everything I could to demonstrate love and support for my child. I would seek other resources and learn from other people." You certainly wouldn't want to say this in any sort of accusing manner. Having someone share their supportive concerns for their kids can be quite encouraging. If you know her teenage son, I suggest expressing support for him and admiration for who he is and what he has done. I would look for examples of how she has raised him well and been a good mother.

I would see if there are opportunities to share resources outside of the Church. I haven't followed them much, but I think Mama Dragons would be one such resource. This page is quite useful Tips for Mamas. I've always told myself that if one of my children came out to me, I would join PFLAG immediately and read all of the resources they have. Not everyone would be as activist as that, but PFLAG has lots of great resources and support. This one is a very helpful starting point: Our Children.

Best of luck to being a supportive friend!

[wtfluff]

I have a neighbor who says this about her gay son:

The god that I believe in is not going to be disappointed with me, or punish me in some way for loving my son.

Something similar to that is my "advice". (Yes, it's basically a repeat of points others have made in the thread.)

[Brent]

1. God loves her and her boy. Unconditionally. To the Lord he's just another boy.

2. The Church evolves. Look at everything from the method of translation to polygamy to Blacks and the priesthood. Hope is not lost. Personally, I believe the church will eventually allow members to be gay, monogamous and married. Not next weekend but eventually it has to happen to hold millennials in the fold. Have hope.

3. What you want for your gay child is what the Lord wants for him. Man is that he might have Joy. Capital J, Joy. Help him understand that he's not "weird" or "different" or born with a "special challenge" he is as God made and that isn't a mistake or matter of chance. He was created as he is and has every right to all the Joy available to all God's children.

4. You are a safe place. You will not judge, deride, or gossip about him, her or the family. Help her have a "judgement free" zone with you at the center. Support, but don't throw shade, not even on the church. I would offer the "Yeah, so?" approach. Her son's gay--yeah, so? He's going on a date--yeah, so? He's getting married--yeah, so?

Treat them just like anyone else. Let them trust you.

[alas]

1. God loves her and her boy. Unconditionally. To the Lord he's just another boy.

2. The Church evolves. Look at everything from the method of translation to polygamy to Blacks and the priesthood. Hope is not lost. Personally, I believe the church will eventually allow members to be gay, monogamous and married. Not next weekend but eventually it has to happen to hold millennials in the fold. Have hope.

3. What you want for your gay child is what the Lord wants for him. Man is that he might have Joy. Capital J, Joy. Help him understand that he's not "weird" or "different" or born with a "special challenge" he is as God made and that isn't a mistake or matter of chance. He was created as he is and has every right to all the Joy available to all God's children.

4. You are a safe place. You will not judge, deride, or gossip about him, her or the family. Help her have a "judgement free" zone with you at the center. Support, but don't throw shade, not even on the church. I would offer the "Yeah, so?" approach. Her son's gay--yeah, so? He's going on a date--yeah, so? He's getting married--yeah, so?

Treat them just like anyone else. Let them trust you.

"yeah, so?" Is actually a really good therapy technique. I used it a LOT professionally, ....only one has to make it sound more empathetic! It needs to sound more like you care, more like you really hear them and understand, but want to know what that means to them. For example, "he is gay." "Yes, yes, he is. What does this mean to you?" Or the one that has become a joke, "yes, and how do you feel about that?" Basically ask questions to get down to what they are afraid of. Parents have lots of fears when they find out a child is gay. Things like, "How will the relatives react?" Or, "What will my ward members think?" Or, "Is this my fault?" Or even, "does this mean there will never be grandchildren?"

As the parent of a lesbian daughter, I think the advice so far has been pretty good.

Just one thought, sometimes people need to know they are not the only ones wondering if church leaders may be wrong. So, sharing the idea that you personally have wondered if the advice from people like Oaks is really best, can be helpful. It is scary to take this step, because in church it is so forbidden. You can ask it as a question, say, what do you think about the advice given by Elder Oaks about not having the partner invited to family gatherings? By asking the question, you break the foregone conclusion that church leaders cannot be questioned. You just questioned the church leaders by just asking about it. And if they hesitate, ask if they think Jesus would treat someone he loved that way. Or you could just wait and see if it comes up in the conversation.

[EternityIsNow]

This is about her son and not about the church leaders. I would ask her what her son wants and needs. Eventually her opinion will be less important to her son and he will do what he believes is best. I think that is an important point for someone in her situation to think about, even as a TBM. She loves her son, and therefore the best thing she can do is to be unconditional in that love and let him know she will support him however he wants to deal with being gay in an anti-gay religion. By being supportive, rather than trying to influence him, she will reduce the risks that LGBT teens and YA face in the church.

Also, you made an interesting comment about polygamist wives. My grandmother was raised in central Utah in the early 1900s, and she shared stories about how those women survived after the church cut them off. Nobody would socialize with them so they created their own social circles. She talked about how the polygamist wives would get together once a year to celebrate everyone in their group's birthday, and that was their highlight of the year. They each brought a birthday cake to share. This was in the 1910s and 20s. Basically, they created their own groups and tried to find purpose in socializing with each other, that was their way of coping with being cut out of the regular social circles. Their lives were a bit sad, but they did manage. My grandmother knew more than average as she came from a line of polygamy that went back to the original Q12. I think this is a brilliant analogy to the current situation with the church and LGBT. Where the polygamist wives groups are analogous to the LDS gay associations. That is the type of social situation your friend's son will face. And he will have to decide whether that works for him,or if not, what to do about it, not her.

[Not Buying It]

Thank you everyone. I am just rereading your suggestions - as I have done many times - one more time before we meet with her. I really appreciate all the fantastic advice.

[Hagoth]

What did Jesus say about LGBT people? Nothing. What did he say about people in general? Love them. What did he say about the one sheep and the ninety nine? As I recall, he didn't consider any of the sheep disposable.

The November policy is designed to keep gay people out of the church, so maybe the church is really telling them that it can't make them happy so they're better off without it.

[moksha]

1. God loves her and her boy. Unconditionally.

That is such a good point. God loves us and His love will not be bound by the prejudices of men. That is true now and especially in the hereafter. Fully embracing Alas's point will be the means by which that mother can resolve any spiritual worries.

There is no need for that family to be casualties in the Mormon War against gays. Given the current acceptance by Western Civilization, there is very little chance Church HQ would be willing to launch the Final Solution devised by its Committee for Purification and Cleansing; the Church law firm of Kirton McConkie would point to the PR nightmare it would cause.

[Not Buying It]

Wow. Turns out she has never believed in the Church. Guess you can never tell about people.

So she is already on board with pretty much everything suggested in this thread. She is a wonderful, loving, supportive mom, and I told her that her son was so fortunate to have her, a lot of gay kids in the Church don’t have that experience. Her son is about to make a pretty public step, and we warned her what she could expect from other members, but let her know she would have our support. But she is committed to standing up and letting the world know she is proud of her son. Wonderful lady and an inspiration as a mother.

One thing she said stuck with me, she would leave all of Mormonism behind if not for the fear of missing going through the temple with her daughter if she serves a mission or missing temple weddings. I told her not to let the stupid temple recommend interview questions keep her from the life she wants to live, or keep her from family events, and to get a recommend if she needs to and not let those questions be a barrier. It really is disgusting the way the Church uses the temple recommend to keep members hostage, using their own families against them. Hopefully I convinced her that taking a nuanced approach to answering the questions is completely justifiable.

She didn’t need advice from me and my wife really, just needed someone to listen, she has it covered, and I am glad for that. Probably the only thing I said that helped was she was talking about the condemnation she feels as a divorced woman in the Church, and I pointed out that the first six Church presidents all had marriages that ended and it was hypocritical of the Church to make any member feel “less than”for being divorced.

All in all, a really positive experience. Thanks again for the advice everyone.

[Red Ryder]

Congrats!

You should tell her about NOM. She sounds like a great lady and would make a wonderful addition to our little internet ward.

[Jeffret]

Great news!