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What do you think?
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:16 pm
by 1smartdodog
I was having a debate with a friend about how much the main 15 know it is all a hoax or at least the church is not what it claims to be. Not sure where I come down on this but it seems hard to imagine they do not at least question the whole thing.
Anyway maybe just for my personal interest it would be nice to know what you think. On a scale of 1 to 10 what do the 15 as a whole know. 1 being they are true believers and 10 they believe it all a total fabrication.
Of course there is no way to know but it does intrigue me that they may know everything but choose to perpetuate the narrative
I think I would say a 5.
Re: What do you think?
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:33 pm
by Linked
I would say 1 or 2. These guys must be master mental gymnasts. If they tended to realize it was BS I think at least one of them would have the guts to do something about it by this point. I think maybe Dieter pulls the average away from 1, though even he has given some cringeworthy talks.
Re: What do you think?
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:51 pm
by Rob4Hope
Before Grant Palmer died, he said that some of the higher-ups new it was false, but they hold the line because they think they will do more damage if they pull out than if they try to provide moral leadership by keeping the thing going, even though the narrative requires them to lie.
I think the Q15 wilfully shelve things, but are so steeped in ritual and endless work (or writing books) they don't come up for air and even consider it.
From the latest fiasco with Elder Oaks and Ballard (RFM covered it pretty good), they live behind their "plausible deniability" wall.
I also think that many of these men see things differently, and I mean REALLY differently. I, for example, see truth and falsehood as a function of factual information. I think Elder Oaks sees truth and falsehood as a function of defendability. If he can 'defend' something (legally), then as far as he is concerned, its true. It doesn't matter if its factual--it just needs to be defensible.
That is a WHOLE NEW MINDSET that took me a while to get my head around, let me tell you.
Re: What do you think?
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:29 pm
by wtfluff
My initial gut reaction is: 5.
It does seem that they live in a massively thick bubble, and literally have no idea whatsoever what it's like outside the bubble, so maybe they are insulated to the point that they do fall into the 1 - absolute true believers.
Then again, we're talking about a bunch of dudes who are the board of directors of a *multi-billion* dollar real-estate corporation. How could they NOT see through the lies?
I guess that's why 5 was my reaction. They're either completely insulated children, or completely stupid.
(Oh, hi COB / SCMC lurkers [wave] )
Re: What do you think?
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:39 pm
by Jeffret
I think the top 15 are all petty solid believers in what they understand the church to be and their role or calling on it. Among the lesser quorums I'm sure there are some who just go along. The top 15 probably perceive the church and their role in it differently than the typical member does. But I see no indication they don't fervently believe in the importance of their work. I'd have to give it a 1. Or a 2 but only because I hate to be so absolute.
We have to be careful to not try to impose our perceptions on people with a fast different background and situation.
Re: What do you think?
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:52 pm
by Red Ryder
It's impossible to rate delusions.
Do they believe it enough to continue the charade? Yes.
Do they really speak to Jesus? No
Do they have religious delusions? Yes
Re: What do you think?
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:01 pm
by Thoughtful
Holland wrote his master's thesis on changes to the BOM...
Re: What do you think?
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:18 pm
by slavereeno
They are probably like my friend (or perhaps Richard Bushman) who believe that JS physically saw the one and only anthropomorphic God and his resurrected son and was directed some of the time by him directly. Everything else can be explained by "God used his powers to screw up reality so we had freedom to choose the One True Church or not without bias"
I think some of them fit that category, and therefore are a 2. Some may be in serious self denial. I know there are things I tell myself often enough that I believe them in spite of what the truth may actually be. I may suffer some cog-dis about this, but I keep putting brick on brick until i convince myself. Some may be in that category so like a 3, when this stuff is presented they bury their head in the sand and chant internally that its all just Satan's lies.
There may be one that is nuanced at a 5 or 6 but I doubt it, even if he is the one that I can tolerate listening to in GC.
Re: What do you think?
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:24 pm
by wtfluff
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:52 pmDo they really speak to Jesus? No
This one is quite interesting, in that: Because they haven't seen the Vice-President Boss-Man, they KNOW that there's something wrong. Do they believe that there's something wrong with the church? Or do the Q15 deal with the stupid mormon guilt like everyone else in the church and just think that it's their fault that they haven't seen Jesus, because they're unworthy?
I also wonder: Do they speak to each other about NOT seeing Jesus? Do they pair off once in a while in some out-of-the-way corner in the CAB and whisper to each other: "Dude, have you seen Jesus?" Or do they just sit in their meetings in the upper rooms of the temple with the other Q15, washing each other's feet, and the giant pink elephant in the room is that NONE of them have seen Jesus, but of course, "It's too sacred to talk about".
Re: What do you think?
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:27 pm
by oliver_denom
wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:24 pm
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:52 pmDo they really speak to Jesus? No
This one is quite interesting, in that: Because they haven't seen the Vice-President Boss-Man, they KNOW that there's something wrong. Do they believe that there's something wrong with the church? Or do the Q15 deal with the stupid mormon guilt like everyone else in the church and just think that it's their fault that they haven't seen Jesus, because they're unworthy?
I also wonder: Do they speak to each other about NOT seeing Jesus? Do they pair off once in a while in some out-of-the-way corner in the CAB and whisper to each other: "Dude, have you seen Jesus?" Or do they just sit in their meetings in the upper rooms of the temple with the other Q15, washing each other's feet, and the giant pink elephant in the room is that NONE of them have seen Jesus, but of course, "It's too sacred to talk about".
I think they've convinced themselves that they've been in his presence, just not visibly. He's in their mind and in their hearts in a way that makes them special witnesses, whatever that means.
Re: What do you think?
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:29 pm
by GoodBoy
I believe that they are the definition of TBM. Their minds won't allow them to consider even the remote possibility that the church might not be true. Their entire lives and success depends on that belief and their minds can't even go there.
Re: What do you think?
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:44 pm
by Red Ryder
GoodBoy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:29 pm
I believe that they are the definition of TBM. Their minds won't allow them to consider even the remote possibility that the church might not be true. Their entire lives and success depends on that belief and their minds can't even go there.
I like this. Most of us were them at one point.
Without the modest stipend of course!
Re: What do you think?
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:16 pm
by Corsair
GoodBoy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:29 pm
I believe that they are the definition of TBM. Their minds won't allow them to consider even the remote possibility that the church might not be true. Their entire lives and success depends on that belief and their minds can't even go there.
So, they would be a "1" on the scale in question. I tend to agree. They are at the top of an organization that promotes based on strict loyalty and utility. For decades they have narrowed themselves into the mindset to be in the role of apostle. They are believers by strict definition. Apostasy in the quorum has happened, but it's the orthodox fundamentalists that leave, not the liberal radicals. A liberal would get as high as Elders Quorum President, but certainly not past Bishop.
The church can only promote from within. A secular corporation who can hire an expert into a senior executive role and take on the challenges of marketing, finance, demographics, or development. But a church, especially TCoJHCoLDs can
only promote from within. Technically they could hire some random priesthood holder with good ideas, but seniority is a serious thing. As a result, new ideas take decades to be introduced and radical ideas have a near impossible path.
Re: What do you think?
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:52 pm
by Palerider
Sorry to have to repeat this. Maybe I should ask everyone here to think back to a time when you were looking closely at a person and they told you a bald faced lie and you knew it the moment it left their lips.
This happened to me with Eyring. He was standing at congregational level, not up on the podium and I was seated less than 10 feet away from the guy. He had been taking a few questions from the congregation, a leadership meeting.
As a part of his closing testimony, he bore witness of the Book of Mormon. I knew immediately he wasn't telling the truth. I could see it in his expression. I know there are those out there (especially TBMs) who would say that I'm being totally subjective, but I have to say that I have this built in B.S. o'meter and I've even had friends who have asked me how I knew at the time someone was lying when they didn't see it until later.
Humans have "tells" that we perceive on an almost subconscious level. Eyring's were like a neon sign. I know that he knows that the BoM is phony.
I can only suppose that he believes the church to be a worthwhile cause and so he avoids self confrontation in order to avoid the devastating consequences of checking out of the fantasy.
Re: What do you think?
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:06 pm
by Hagoth
They obviously know they're not real prophets and apostles like the ones in the Bible, otherwise they would be talking to God and doing miracles instead of working so hard at trying to convince us that we're all confused about what a miracle is, and that revelation consists of selecting from a stack of policies written by their law firm.
I wonder how they would be changed if you took each of them out of their environment for about five years, put them in a small foreign community with no perks, no recognition, no church contact, and had them working a mundane 9 to 5 job, making their own sack lunch every day and taking the bus to work. Would they come away still feeling like they're special after they've had to live outside of the bubble?
Re: What do you think?
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:05 pm
by Rob4Hope
Palerider wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:52 pm
Sorry to have to repeat this. Maybe I should ask everyone here to think back to a time when you were looking closely at a person and they told you a bald faced lie and you knew it the moment it left their lips.
This happened to me with Eyring. He was standing at congregational level, not up on the podium and I was seated less than 10 feet away from the guy. He had been taking a few questions from the congregation, a leadership meeting.
As a part of his closing testimony, he bore witness of the Book of Mormon. I knew immediately he wasn't telling the truth. I could see it in his expression. I know there are those out there (especially TBMs) who would say that I'm being totally subjective, but I have to say that I have this built in B.S. o'meter and I've even had friends who have asked me how I knew at the time someone was lying when they didn't see it until later.
Humans have "tells" that we perceive on an almost subconscious level. Eyring's were like a neon sign. I know that he knows that the BoM is phony.
I can only suppose that he believes the church to be a worthwhile cause and so he avoids self confrontation in order to avoid the devastating consequences of checking out of the fantasy.
THIS....Palerider....Is Fascinating!
It makes you wonder. You have to wonder about their mental gymnastics.
Re: What do you think?
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:13 pm
by GoodBoy
Hagoth wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:06 pm
They obviously know they're not real prophets and apostles like the ones in the Bible, otherwise they would be talking to God and doing miracles instead of working so hard at trying to convince us that we're all confused about what a miracle is, and that revelation consists of selecting from a stack of policies written by their law firm.
And this is where I fault them. They know that they don't know the future. They know that their "sense of discernment" is just reading body language. They know they don't have the bat-phone to God. They just accept the praise that is heaped on them telling them that they are super special, and that their ideas are super great. They love to hear it and don't want to admit that they are pretty ordinary.
Re: What do you think?
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:14 pm
by Anon70
Hagoth wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:06 pm
They obviously know they're not real prophets and apostles like the ones in the Bible, otherwise they would be talking to God and doing miracles instead of working so hard at trying to convince us that we're all confused about what a miracle is, and that revelation consists of selecting from a stack of policies written by their law firm.
This has been my experience - just keep redefining miracles / making them completely subjective so no one can argue the point. My parents maintain their belief by ignoring facts and claiming every good feeling and coincidence is a miracle.
Re: What do you think?
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:37 pm
by 2bizE
7-8...they know. Did you see Holland try to explain away the fabrication of the book of Abraham? He struggled within because he knows or put it all together at that moment that the.church is a fraud.
Re: What do you think?
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:58 am
by Hagoth
2bizE wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:37 pmDid you see Holland try to explain away the fabrication of the book of Abraham?
I'm not sure what you're referring to, 2bizE. Can you provide a link?