NOM

I generally trust science, as far as my world view goes, although I try to maintain some skepticism. The problem is, it's difficult to explain such a world view to TBM's. Most of them don't have the patience or interest in learning about the various converging scientific fields (biology, geology, history, genetics, astronomy) that confirm a 13.8 billion year old universe, a 4 billion year old earth, evolution, or homo sapiens being around for several hundred thousand years. I fact, I don't know the details that would help me explain most of that stuff. It takes real talent and/or skill to be able to make such a world view convincing to the average person, L.D.S. or not. Any solutions or sites, that would help communicate this to the ordinary people that God loves?

Interesting quote from Nobel prize winner (quantum mechanics) in physics Max Born, whose birthday was featured in the Google doodle of the day.

"I believe that ideas such as absolute certitude, absolute exactness, final truth, etc. are figments of the imagination which should not be admissible in any field of science... the belief in a single truth and in being the possessor thereof is the root cause of all evil in the world."

Best to keep the final sentence away from TBMs so they will not go into a critical meltdown or explode.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:46 pm Any solutions or sites, that would help communicate this to the ordinary people that God loves?

There are a couple of sources that I like that I've been able to use with more reasonable TBMs:

https://ourworldindata.org/natural-catastrophes/

and selected videos from these guys:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kurtzegat

I have been expanding a similar worldview in a few ways.

- Crash Course on YouTube has been great for a variety of topics, I especially enjoyed Philosophy and Biology
- Space Time on YouTube digs deeper into Astrophysics than most things I've seen
- SciShow on YouTube
- I second Kurzgesagt on YouTube
- It's Okay to Be Smart on YouTube
- The book Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind
- The TV Series Cosmos
- The EdX course Human Origins, taught by the professor who discovered "Lucy"

Some other books in this vein that I've enjoyed are Thinking Fast and Slow, the beginning of The Invention of Science, The History of the Ancient World, Guns Germs and Steel, and Why Nations Fail.

I really like the short youtube format because it is not as intimidating as a large book or documentary; it's bite-sized. I think that is especially helpful for showing to someone who may not have the same level of interest in the subject.

Great suggestions so far.

My first real exposure to this sort of thing was - A demon haunted world by Carl Sagan.
I was pretty ticked I did not find him sooner, he's fantastic.

Confirmation bias can play into this in a backfire way sometimes. I've written about the double-slit experiment and some recent stuff out there from an Arizona PhD research guy that is ASTONISHING. A TBM would say: "See....God DID command and there was light!"

moksha wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:56 pm

"I believe that ideas such as absolute certitude, absolute exactness, final truth, etc. are figments of the imagination which should not be admissible in any field of science... the belief in a single truth and in being the possessor thereof is the root cause of all evil in the world."

So basically Max is saying not to put all our faith in an arm holding a high precision calculator, especially one saying light is a particle or a wave and not both, right?

LaMachina wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:52 am Great suggestions so far.

My first real exposure to this sort of thing was - A demon haunted world by Carl Sagan.
I was pretty ticked I did not find him sooner, he's fantastic.

Demon Haunted World continues to be a fantastic book that I reread every few years. The information in it is starting to be a little bit dated, but still works as a an excellent primer on critical thinking.

LaMachina wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:52 am Great suggestions so far.

My first real exposure to this sort of thing was - A demon haunted world by Carl Sagan.
I was pretty ticked I did not find him sooner, he's fantastic.

Carl Sagan was the driving force in my entrance into reality. His books are great. I still watch him on you tube. We lost him to soon.

moksha wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:56 pm Interesting quote from Nobel prize winner (quantum mechanics) in physics Max Born, whose birthday was featured in the Google doodle of the day.

"I believe that ideas such as absolute certitude, absolute exactness, final truth, etc. are figments of the imagination which should not be admissible in any field of science... the belief in a single truth and in being the possessor thereof is the root cause of all evil in the world."

I find this a difficult premise to accept.

I took my 6yo to the Smithsonian. She saw the human evolution exhibit and watched the video. She thought it was "beautiful". She loved seeing the primate "grandmothers" and asked questions about their lives.

It is so logical and simple.

Carl Sagan was definitely gone before his time.

Mad Jax wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:30 am I find this a difficult premise to accept.

I think what Max Born was getting at was that science should never put blinders on and ignore new evidence. That old models should give way to new models when the data supports it. That science should not become dogmatic.

I do not believe much about religion anymore. That doesn't mean I also accept all science as fact. There are very similar threads in both religion and science.
For example, the science of the universe or the big bang is a theory. It may be wrong. Some people hold to religion and the big bang in the same way: unchanging fact.
Scientists generally hold to the concept that they may not be correct, and in the future as knowledge evolves, so can facts.
Mormons have doctrine that is the same. One of the articles of faith says we believe all that has been revealed...and that many things are yet to be revealed. The difference between Mormonism and science is with Mormonism people have no belief that things can change, even though the doctrine says it will.

moksha wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:40 am

Mad Jax wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:30 am I find this a difficult premise to accept.

I think what Max Born was getting at was that science should never put blinders on and ignore new evidence. That old models should give way to new models when the data supports it. That science should not become dogmatic.

Or perhaps the thinking that we as humans know absolute truth is the evil. I believe there is a single truth out there somewhere. But I sure don't know what that single truth about any one thing is. We humans are totally incapable of gaining that single truth, and if we start thinking we possess it, that is what becomes evil.

I think that when a group of humans becomes certain of a thing and dogmatically holds to it in the face of disconfirming evidence, they become incapable of understanding anyone who doesn't hold that same certainty. I think there are two main reasons.

First, the thing becomes so obviously true to them that anyone who doesn't believe it must be either stupid or dishonest. Who could possibly understand someone like that? Who would want to?

Second, they must always be vigilant about everything they see and hear, and constantly live in fear of being disabused of their position. Trying to understand someone who believes the opposite of the group's dogma becomes dangerous.

It doesn't take long to set up boundaries and to start demonizing the stupid, dishonest outsiders who are always trying to ruin everything. A quirk in human psychology, in which we regard our core beliefs as being as important to protect as health or life, raises the stakes.

I don't think all of the evil in the world comes down to this, but I think an awful lot of it does. In particular, I think most of the evil perpetrated in the name of God comes down to this.

Reuben, your second point is compelling. Because of my total conviction that the world is round, I don't feel threatened when I read or hear of contrary ideas. Those who profess certainty or near certainty in their world view often display behavior that shows they feel threatened and/or fear when contrary information is confronting them. For me, this is almost as compelling as physical evidence that their world view is faulty, or just plain wrong.
Not only are they uneasy with compassion, they may view real compassion as sinful, a dangerous threat to their world view.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:46 pm Because of my total conviction that the world is round, I don't feel threatened when I read or hear of contrary ideas.

But if you went to a flat earth society meeting, you might still be a little wigged out at the conversations and goings on. Wigged out that that many people believe the earth is flat.