NOM

I just listened to the year of polygamy episode on the Utah period violence. Lindsay and Joe geisner mentioned that a lot of the widowed and young girls that survived were married off relatively quickly and a lot were very young. I am trying to read more about this apart from blog posts. What are the resources available that you guys know about these survivors? I am trying to wade through the faithful propaganda on google right now.

So far I have some stuff from will bagley and devils gate by David Roberts.

The Will Bagley article is pretty eye-opening. If it hadn't been for leadership blunders, abuses and intimidation there might not have been any widows. Between the handcart disaster and Mountain Meadows, Mormons get to own both the worst humanitarian disaster and the worst mass murder in the American West. Hooray for our side.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:30 pm Between the handcart disaster and Mountain Meadows, Mormons get to own both the worst humanitarian disaster and the worst mass murder in the American West. Hooray for our side.

[sarcastic guilt trip]
And it is exactly because of these sorts of "sacrifices" that your ancestors made the you should keep paying, praying, and obeying!
[/sarcastic guilt trip]



When you know the facts, its kind of unbelievable that as Utahn's we "celebrate" the handcart disaster as a state holiday every year.

Isn't there a big thing about Martin and Willie companies and Brigham Young not sending aid primarily to them, but sending teamsters to get his shipment of liquor and the big steam engine?

That whole segment of history is a giant white-wash revisionist fable.

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:43 pm Isn't there a big thing about Martin and Willie companies and Brigham Young not sending aid primarily to them, but sending teamsters to get his shipment of liquor and the big steam engine?

That whole segment of history is a giant white-wash revisionist fable.

Yes, he had Lorenzo Snow special order the engine in St. Louis and it was purportedly designed to be salt water resistant for boating on the GSL.

The article is "One Long Funeral March" by Will Bagley.

yeah, but all I have in my memory is the story of the guy who was in one of those companies. He heard someone criticizing the decision to send them, and stood up for the decision, saying that angels came and that everyone in those companies was super-duper Mormon now because if their experience, etc.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:44 pm yeah, but all I have in my memory is the story of the guy who was in one of those companies. He heard someone criticizing the decision to send them, and stood up for the decision, saying that angels came and that everyone in those companies was super-duper Mormon now because if their experience, etc.

Yeah, you also hear that not one member of the handcart companies regretted it and left the church. The truth is that most of those people were indentured servants to the church and half of them left as soon as they had worked off their debts.

You also don't hear about how church leaders bought all of the belongings that wouldn't fit on the handcarts for a fraction of their value and then sold them back at a huge markup once they got to Utah. Nor do you hear about John Taylor's plan to provide supporting wagons and cattle for each handcart company and to set up a series of food caches for them along the way, which was rejected by Brigham to Taylor's horror that Brigham would value the lives of his people at less than the few dollars per person it would have cost. Nor do you hear about the shaming by their priesthood leaders of the cautious members of the company who wanted to wait for good weather, nor how those priesthood leaders traveled by buggy and butchered for themselves the few cattle that the handcart pioneers did bring for their own survival.

All of this is why I get so annoyed when the Martin and Willie handcart companies are waved in front of our faces as a faith-promoting inspirational tale, when it is really a story of horrific and needless suffering caused by uninspired, selfish and incompetent leaders who propagandized the entire story to later generations.

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:29 pm

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:43 pm Isn't there a big thing about Martin and Willie companies and Brigham Young not sending aid primarily to them, but sending teamsters to get his shipment of liquor and the big steam engine?

That whole segment of history is a giant white-wash revisionist fable.

Yes, he had Lorenzo Snow special order the engine in St. Louis and it was purportedly designed to be salt water resistant for boating on the GSL.

The article is "One Long Funeral March" by Will Bagley.

Is Will Bagley considered an unbiased source? I've wanted to discuss this with my husband, since his family was in the Martin and Willie Handcart company and he agreed to study it with me.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:07 am

slavereeno wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:44 pm yeah, but all I have in my memory is the story of the guy who was in one of those companies. He heard someone criticizing the decision to send them, and stood up for the decision, saying that angels came and that everyone in those companies was super-duper Mormon now because if their experience, etc.

Yeah, you also hear that not one member of the handcart companies regretted it and left the church. The truth is that most of those people were indentured servants to the church and half of them left as soon as they had worked off their debts.

You also don't hear about how church leaders bought all of the belongings that wouldn't fit on the handcarts for a fraction of their value and then sold them back at a huge markup once they got to Utah. Nor do you hear about John Taylor's plan to provide supporting wagons and cattle for each handcart company and to set up a series of food caches for them along the way, which was rejected by Brigham to Taylor's horror that Brigham would value the lives of his people at less than the few dollars per person it would have cost. Nor do you hear about the shaming by their priesthood leaders of the cautious members of the company who wanted to wait for good weather, nor how those priesthood leaders traveled by buggy and butchered for themselves the few cattle that the handcart pioneers did bring for their own survival.

All of this is why I get so annoyed when the Martin and Willie handcart companies are waved in front of our faces as a faith-promoting inspirational tale, when it is really a story of horrific and needless suffering caused by uninspired, selfish and incompetent leaders who propagandized the entire story to later generations.

I was familiar with most of this, and the white-wash is ASTONISHING! The part that bugs me right off is the BY and JT disagreement. Brigham really didn't care about people. And the homage paid to him now in general conference and elsewhere is infuriating.

Truly, history has been re-written to aggrandize/promulgate a fable. I suppose we could all accept that it was God's will that the Martin and Willie companies suffer (and this is what JS would say): "It was a test of their faith".

The LDS church makes God a creep! Rather than accept they made mistakes themselves and were NOT prophets, seers and revelators...they would rather destroy God. Pure narcissists.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:07 am All of this is why I get so annoyed when the Martin and Willie handcart companies are waved in front of our faces as a faith-promoting inspirational tale, when it is really a story of horrific and needless suffering caused by uninspired, selfish and incompetent leaders who propagandized the entire story to later generations.

I was not actually aware of this, would like to find out more. I have participated as an adult leader on a "Pioneer Trek". Worse yet, I played the role of Brigham Young.

MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:16 am

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:29 pm

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:43 pm Isn't there a big thing about Martin and Willie companies and Brigham Young not sending aid primarily to them, but sending teamsters to get his shipment of liquor and the big steam engine?

That whole segment of history is a giant white-wash revisionist fable.

Yes, he had Lorenzo Snow special order the engine in St. Louis and it was purportedly designed to be salt water resistant for boating on the GSL.

The article is "One Long Funeral March" by Will Bagley.

Is Will Bagley considered an unbiased source? I've wanted to discuss this with my husband, since his family was in the Martin and Willie Handcart company and he agreed to study it with me.

Not really. He is pretty controversial by TBM standards.

Here's what you're looking for

https://user.xmission.com/~research/cen ... ndcart.pdf

MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:16 amIs Will Bagley considered an unbiased source? I've wanted to discuss this with my husband, since his family was in the Martin and Willie Handcart company and he agreed to study it with me.

It's all in the paper that Craig Paxton linked. No, Will is not considered unbiased by Mormons looking for feel-good affirmations, but his research is vastly superior to any church-approved versions of the story. So, apples to apples, if your looking for an unbiased telling of the story, Will's version is far more accurate than anything you would get from church-approved historians or propagandistic retellings like the 17 Miracles movie.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:10 pm I was not actually aware of this, would like to find out more. I have participated as an adult leader on a "Pioneer Trek". Worse yet, I played the role of Brigham Young.

Was there any reference to acquiring more wives and starting a distillery at that time? I also participated as an adult leader on a Pioneer Trek, but all I did was make sure that the teenagers did not do anything overtly foolish. However, I did encourage them to wear old-timey pioneer clothes on a camping trip so my judgement on silliness may or may not be trustworthy.

I'm also guessing that only the most faith promoting parts of pioneer life were mentioned on your pioneer trek. I was a full believer at the time and was providing faithful guidance for that group of youth. On the last day I was thinking about how this seemed like such a "celestial" society where all these youth and leaders were focused on simply serving God without worrying about temporal cares. It was like a brief period of living the Law of Consecration!

However, then I walked by the trailer that was used to haul in supplies and was subsequently used to haul out the expected amount of trash. It dawned on me that this kind of society was only possible when a well-funded church and reasonably funded group of parents were willing to fund this camping trip. The economics of idealized LDS society only work when a much larger group is willing to sustain it. It felt like a such a narrow range of workability. The Willie and Martin handcart companies did not have that kind of support when they needed it and tragedy ensued.

My biggest question about the handcart disaster: Why was God so stingy with the pies?

A round of nutritious magic pies for everyone would probably have saved a lot of lives and made for a much more believable faith-promoting story.

The thing that bugs me the most is the constant barrage of stories about how there were none that regretted the decision to make that trip. That "[they] became acquainted with God" on that trip.

I suppose.

God sends winters and doesn't turn away storms to save his people...
God tells his leaders to neglect the needs of those who take such trips, because the leaders certainly didn't make any mistakes...I mean, come on!
God will NOT rain down manna to feed starving children who froze to the ground
God does this all as a test, trying to see if his people will still follow Him, even though he neglects and ignores them.

God sounds like a very abusive parent.

So, is the message of this constant harping on the story to have faith in God, even though he is a total creep?

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:00 pm So, is the message of this constant harping on the story to have faith in God, even though he is a total creep?

Absolutely, except somehow it's not bad when God does it.

IMO, they probably ended up with stronger testimonies by the same mechanism that tithing and missions work their magic: heavy investment increases belief and commitment. The real "blessing" that comes from great sacrifice is that you hack your own brain to believe harder.

Reuben wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:02 pm

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:00 pm So, is the message of this constant harping on the story to have faith in God, even though he is a total creep?

Absolutely, except somehow it's not bad when God does it.

IMO, they probably ended up with stronger testimonies by the same mechanism that tithing and missions work their magic: heavy investment increases belief and commitment. The real "blessing" that comes from great sacrifice is that you hack your own brain to believe harder.

yep

ONE LONG FUNERAL MARCH by Will Bagley
https://user.xmission.com/~research/cen ... ndcart.pdf

DEVIL'S GATE by David Roberts
http://www.denverpost.com/2008/12/11/ha ... hypocrisy/