NOM

After hearing the uproar over some of the comments on the Face to Face interview with Elder Oaks and Elder Ballard, I decided to watch it for myself so I could have an opinion not based on soundbites from others. This was my take. Obviously it is not a transcript but I've tried to get the wording as best as I could. I realise that a lot of my comments are sort of pointless too if you don't believe any of it, but I'm coming from the point of view of - if it is all true, how do these answers impact and help members?

Q: First question was about how to gain and keep a testimony

O: Things happen in the Lord’s time and not to “get uptight” if a prayer is not answered straight away.

Ballard: He often needs to find a quiet place to just “where I can just be still and know that I am god” . Don’t think that quite came out the way he meant it to but I get what he was saying.

Straight away I was feeling a bit put off by Elder Oaks. I don't think he really answered the question, and this pattern continued through several other questions. The question was not about receiving answer to prayer, it was about getting a testimony. I understand that he would say that prayer is essential to getting a testimony but the question was not "I prayed to get a testimony and don't have one" yet. I also think that a testimony is quite a different thing to praying about a decision etc. On this question I felt Ballard was more helpful but still I was left feeling that a testimony is this nebulous thing that no-one quite knows how to get and keep, and Oaks answer made it sounds like if we don't have one we should just sit tight and keep waiting. How long do we wait Elder Oaks?

Q: How can I stand up for my standards without offending others who don’t have the same views?

B: keep a smile on your face. Make a connection with other people and they’ll start asking you more questions. Relax and enjoy the gospel and share it with a smile on your face.

O: scriptures say in mildness and meekness. Should not pound the gospel into friends and family. Should not say “It’s this way whether you believe it or not”. Don’t say others are wrong in what they do, but rather say it is wrong for me because of the covenants I have made.

I didn't mind these answers. I think it is important that church members stop trying to tell the world that their way is the only way.

How can I differentiate between the holy ghost and my own thoughts and feelings?

O: inspiration comes in the still small voice, not in the urgent impulses of doing what we want to do and reaching out in bias to our personal opinion. If he gets an impression to do something he doesn’t want to do, he thinks that is more authentic than if he gets an impression to do something he already wants to do.

B: be sure you are living right. Be sure that your own lives are being lived in such a way that you can receive these promptings. Say prayers. Stay in the scriptures. Simple things fortify you and give you a foundation and protection.

O: If you get an impression contrary to the scriptures, the commandments or the teachings of his leaders, then we know that it can’t be coming from the Holy Ghost. Gospel is consistent throughout.

Experience from someone whose parents said they had a revelation that they didn’t need to go to church or pay tithing anymore. Replied that they got this revelation from the wrong source. (laughter)

So many thoughts on this one.

Firstly, I got tired of "pray and read the scriptures" - it was repeated many times in this interview.

Secondly, Oaks first answer brings to mind this culture of "if it's not hard, you are not doing it right" that we seem to grasp onto in the church. Saying that impressions to do things that we don't want to do are more authentic is setting people up to not trust their own instincts or their own thoughts or feelings.

Thirdly, we see the "us vs them" rhetoric in terms of the simple things being a protection. I wondered - a protection from what in this context? Protection from receiving revelation from the devil perhaps?

Maybe that's where this line of thinking was going, because fourth, the devil instructed this person's parents not to go to church? Really? This is so offensive to anyone who has made that call for so many reasons that have nothing to do with visitations from Satan.

Q: Number of questions about same gender attraction. 2 representative questions.
What would be important for a homosexual young to know to stay firm in the gospel and how can a heterosexual young adult help?
The world seems very frustrated with our beliefs on same gender attraction. How can we show our love to them despite our differences?

O: we want to be helpful, it is a concern for many, either personally on behalf of friends of family members.
Related story of grandparent who had grandson struggling with this problem. Said "I am not going to let my sexuality interfere with my spirituality." O thought it was an expression of faith and determination.

B: endorsed that. But we have to be cautious and willing to listen and talk to one another about this issue.
Remember we are striving to keep covenants in our lifetime. Those who have same gender attraction are gods children and he loves them. There is a place for them. Church is a place of refuge, a place to come and find peace. But all of us have to make the decision to make the covenants that the lord tells us are important. Be loving and understanding. As all of us strive to keep our covenants then we will all receive the blessings that are waiting for us.

O: be willing to bear one anothers burdens. Loving one another despite differences comes first especially in this subject where bullying and physical brutality and harassment have played a part. Said they hear a lot of reports of verbal abuse. Be cautious not to label ourselves or one another. Most important label any of us can carry is child of God. Don’t label ourselves as anti-this or that but carry on as a child of god.

I think they skirted the question a bit and stuck to the "we just love them despite their sins" line. I couldn't quite figure out where Ballard was going with the covenants bit. I think he might have been trying to point out that if you are LGBTi you will have to make a decision whether to choose that path or a covenant path.

Q was what would you suggest for someone strugging with OCD and anxiety

B: said he has had moments where he has struggled with anxiety. Not sure anxiety is a terrible thing as long as we keep it in balance. Anxiety help to make you move and keep your life going?

Someone who slips into extreme anxiety or depression or emotional challenges. Talk to parents. Talk to your priesthood leaders and yw and rs leaders in your ward. Then if it gets extreme perhaps need professional counsel. Don’t be afraid to get advice from people who love you and understand you better than you do yourself and then if necessary get some professional help. Trust in the lord through your own faith and calling down heavenly help.

O: all of us have some anxiety. Probably a minority that have a disabling anxiety. Related being a disturbed little boy after death of father. Extreme anxiety in law school, felt could not compete. Glad that neither one of those kept him from going ahead and trusting in the lord and getting through it. For most of us that is the answer to the concern about anxiety. Also we know the atonement of our lord and saviour jesus Christ is available to help strengthen us through these adversities. Saviour suffered all things so he can succor us through infirmities. When I have anxious moments I know I can turn to the lord who has felt all of these things.

B: oaks and I were anxious about coming here to face all of you. Anxiety is just part of life.

This one really got my goat. If they are going to answer questions about serious mental health issues, they need to get a professional in to talk about it. "I was stressed in law school" doesn't quite rise to the level of chronic, debilitating anxiety. I also object to Priesthood leaders and YW/RS leaders being a pit stop BEFORE a medical health professional. I could go on but it will make me angry.

Q: How can we achieve balance between worldly life and spiritual life and how can we discern the difference between the two.

O: Qs about balance are the most common questions I have in leadership and small group meetings in the church. Everyone has to balance. Difficult to answer because the circumstances are different. Has to be put back on the individual. But has guidance.
Lord gave us a good example in the creation. 7th day is the Sabbath. Establishes a balance in the way we allocate our time. People who keep the Sabbath day have a built in heavenly balance that helps them.

B: every day is a spiritual day. Every day starts with prayer. Every day we call down the blessings of heaven. We go into a temporal world to make a living. Don’t try to separate it. The two work together. Have to be sure that your spiritual needs are nurtured. Prayer, scripture, simple things help you stay focussed and balanced.

O: you can’t balance on a daily basis. Can’t establish a rule to give % of time to different things on each day.
Illustrates balance with ensign from general conference. Balance our lives by feasting upon things that are spiritual. Keep us in balance with the blogosphere, social media, internet, get out of balance by paying too much attention to that and not enough attention to the teachings of the living prophets.

I think balance is a huge question in the church because we are all asked to do too much, and when too much is piled on, stuff falls off and breaks. Like your mental health. See question above.

Non member asks how she can join the church and how she can know it is true

Laughter

B: just listen. Study and understand the glorious and wonderful ministry of jesus Christ. Learn to build your faith and your love in him. Then as that begins, let your faith lead you then to find out where is the truth. Where are the covenants, commandments, ordinances of eternal salvation? Listen to those who know about the restoration, one of the most exciting and glorious and true stories in the history of the world.

The thing that anyone can have in their hand to know whether this church is true is the book of Mormon. When people take this book and get into it then they find answers to life's questions. What is my purpose, why am I here, where am I going? Offered to send her some missionaries.

Mmmmm "most exciting and glorious and true stories in the history of the word". Exciting maybe. Which version of the restoration story is the truest one exactly? Interesting that the question of the multiple First Vision stories comes up later.

Pornography is a great challenge of our day.
I struggle with viewing pornography. Doing everything I can to gain spiritual strength but I keep falling and transgressing. What more can I do to overcome this weakness?
What should you do if someone you are dating is struggling with pornography.

O: q’s not encountered as he was growing up. Every generation has unique temptations. P is major problem today for both young people and adults. Lord has given us principles which if we apply them can keep us away from temptation or rescue us if we use it or get addicted to it.

B: read what he said at the byu devotional. Everyone has challenges. But pornography is winning the day in destroying lives families and relationships.

Answering the question “My boyfriend struggles with pornography; what should I do?” Elder Ballard encouraged transparency and complete honesty—especially to anyone who is considering marriage.

“Talk with each other and find out where a person’s heart is and what he or she is doing to become a Saint through the Atonement of Jesus Christ,” he said. “However, you shouldn’t be asking these kinds of personal questions when you first meet someone—and certainly not during the first date!”
Recognizing a person may be able to help another person who is sincerely trying to find freedom from habitual use or addiction to the “new drug” of pornography, Elder Ballard said that “too many men and women suffer in silence because we have unintentionally demonized those who are addicted to pornography.
“Parents, family members, and friends can do much more to help those in trouble by being willing to listen and offer support and encouragement. Nevertheless, boyfriends and girlfriends are not responsible to ‘save’ their friends from sin; each person has that responsibility.”
To those wondering about if they should proceed in a relationship where pornography is a factor, Elder Ballard said, “Only you can decide, with the Lord’s help.”
“If you choose to remain in a relationship with someone struggling with this temptation, help him or her turn to God in prayer, in fasting, and in regular scripture study,” he said. “Additionally, encourage visits with parents, family members, priesthood leaders, and/or professional counselors to get additional help and support. The main thing for us to know about this new drug is that there is always hope if they sincerely choose to fight this battle. It may not be easy, but it is worth it!”

Talked about drawing a line and not going to the pornography (devils side) but stay on the lord’s side. I’m not going to go to the devils side because he is the author of pornography. Wished there was a magic answer but the answer is get over it and work at it and push it out of your lives and have more and more of the saviour and the doctrine of Christ in your lives.

O: And remember the atonement of Jesus Christ - can help you overcome every weakness or temptation.

I find this an interesting topic in the church. I do not personally feel pornography is a good thing, however I feel like it is one of those issues that is mostly an issue because the church has chosen to make it one, and has done so as one of the things that "makes us different". I did think it was interesting that Ballard said that we have unintentionally demonized those who are addicted to porn, but then later talks about pornography is the devil's side. I'm not sure that the two thoughts can coincide. We shouldn't demonize those who are under the influence of Satan because they are looking at porn?

Question about dealing with tough questions about church history.

O: distinguish between questions and doubts. They are different.
Questions are asked to increase knowledge
We encourage questions.
Doubt is an ambiguous word. Dictionary definition – accompanied by distrust, rejection of something. Scriptures have condemned this sort of thing.
Doubt is a confusing word. We don’t encourage it and scriptures condemn it.
Wish to encourage questions.

B: some are saying church has been hiding multiple versions of first vision. Not true. Facts are we don’t study. Cited 1970 article. No attempt in any way to hide anything from anyone. We are transparent. It is the lords way.

O: his teenage son had a question about church history. Replied he didn’t know. Responded with testimony.

Ask questions. But only the not-doubtful ones because doubt is condemned. I found it hard to follow his logic here.
The history question has been covered ad-nauseum elsewhere.
I don't think that responding to questions to which we don't know the answer with a testimony is a good long term answer. A bit of research might be a good starting point.

The female host asked for some advice as she is a new member
B: Told her to enjoy it. Ask questions. If friends can’t answer, take it to RSP or bishop or someone you trust.
O: new convert needs righteous routines. Analyse what temptations you need to go out of your way to avoid. Added another phrase “holy habits”.

I actually find it fascinating that we are told to take tough questions to our leaders, because it is my experience that most leaders have done very little of their own research and will not be able to respond with much more than a testimony and a "we don't have all the answers" kind of reply. I know because I've been a RSP and I was clueless at the time. I also know because our Bishop chooses not to study any of the difficult questions or topics.

I felt like Oaks was trying to inspire a pile of inspirational memes. "Righteous Routines". "Holy Habits".

Q: re spiritual impressions about an eternal companion

B: put your cellphones away. Learn to talk to each other.
Rambled a bit and ended up with “you’ve got to have daughters to take care of you when you get old”.

O: being married to the right person in the right place is the most important thing we can do.
Oaks never asked the lord who he should married. Found someone who suited him. Said he should have counselled with the Lord more.

They went on and on in this topic and the major focus appeared to be "put away your phones and you'll be fine".
I really didn't see how it related to the question at all.

Q: wanting to have spiritual moments again like the ones from their mission
B: do the same things you were doing on your mission. Do the things that built your testimony when you were serving your mission. Scripture study. Prayers. Serve others.

Can you tell I'm losing interest by this point?

Q: seeing family and friends lose their faith. Parents inactive. Wants to reactivate them and ensure younger siblings stay active.

B: don’t preach to them. Just love them. Share life's experiences with them. Honor them. Seek their counsel. Lord will bring about what we pray for through someone else. He had inactive parents while on his mission. Inspiration made them move to a new area. New bishop invited his father to become SS counsellor. They came back. Father became sealer in the temple. Don’t overreact. Be loving kind watchful gentle helpful prayerful. And someone else may step in and help get the job done that you are worried about.

O: talked about the power of example as opposed to preaching

I felt like these answers were far too simplistic and neglected to note that people leave for a variety of different reasons, and gave the impression that the more Uber-mormon we are, the more likely the lost souls will be to return.

Q: Women’s roles. Proclamation teaches mothers responsible for nurturing. Teachings on women being educated causing confusion. Are we expected to have both children and a career?

O: contest is not between a family and a career. Not between a family or education. Women can have both. The question is timing in the individual circumstances. Talked about his mother who had a degree. Couldn’t afford to marry so she got her degree before getting married. A blessing to support family when her husband died. Glad his mother had both. We don’t have to choose one or the other. The timing is what we have to choose and we seek the inspiration of the Lord and his servants in doing that.

This is again such a complex issue that I don't think either the question or the answer really dealt with the underlying issue adequately, which is that the church promotes gender roles that are often not healthy for women in that women feel the expectations coming from the church that they will get married and pop out babies, but also the crazy expectation coming from the 21st century that everyone has the right and the ability to get an education and build a career, and how do you do both adequately without feeling guilty that you are not doing your best at either.

Q: about the Sabbath day. The world seems to have little or no respect for Sabbath worship anymore. I am feeling conflicted because my degree has led me into a field that requires Sunday work. Suggestions?

B: there are some professions (police, civil service) that require your service on the Sabbath day. Sometimes can’t control it. Do all you can do to try to get at least to a sacrament meeting every month. Thinks most employers would accommodate that. We all need to find some way to partake of the sacrament as often as we can. Mentioned GAs don’t get to do that every Sunday. Often at stake conference etc. Sacrament meeting is the one commanded meeting that we should try to attend. Mentioned they as GAs have worked very hard recently to establish in all of our minds that this one hour and ten minutes belongs to the lord. Realise there is some flexibility but objective should be as much as possible to go to Sacrament meetings.

O: another personal experience. Had to work on Sunday when young. Mother told him that his father never studied on Sunday when in medical school. Said he could do better by working and studying 6 days and refraining on the Sabbath. Glad he followed the counsel of his widowed mother. You will get further if you do it the Lord’s way. The owners manual, the one that created this body and soul, says six days shalt thou labour and do all thy work.

Thought this was a boring question with boring answers.

Q: Repentance. Have been trying to repent for years but keep struggling with the same difficulties.

B: This spiritual journey that we are all on – we have to keep in the back of our minds, we have to keep reminding ourselves who we are. Mentioned in passing that we have a heavenly mother too. Plan of salvation or the great plan of happiness. It is a battle to keep feeding the spirit and keep it alive and well. Get a deep conviction of the saviour and the atonement and that it means everything because if we make a mistake we can work our way through and find repentance.

O: repentance is possible and forgiveness is certain. Approach the ordinance of the sacrament with a broken heart and contrite spirit.

Again I felt they circled around the question with the impression being that if you have enough faith and dedicate your life to spiritual things and tick all the boxes you'll be fine.

Closing remarks:

B: talked about the brotherhood they have in the quorum of the 12.
Find time now to be still and rethink some of the things we have talked about. Make notes about what you’ve heard and what you’ve felt. Objective is that we love each other even as the Saviour loves us. You YSA are the future of the church. The day will come when you will carry off the responsibilities of the quorums and auxiliaries of the church.
Counts it greatest privilege to be called to be a witness of his (Saviours) name.

O: Talked about atonement, offering salvation and exaltation to all of the children of God. We have the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ and we have the power of the priesthood to perform his ordinances. Suggested to promote enrolment at institute that they should gather again and discuss the things we’ve talked about this evening.

I couldn't quite figure out how Elder Oaks thought that having another meeting to discuss the F2F is going to increase institute enrolment. Thoughts?

Final thoughts.

I am not sure what it is about Elder Oaks, but it feels like although he is trying to appear more relaxed and friendly, he still sounds like he is delivering a General Conference talk and most of his remarks sounded very scripted to me. I find him hard to relate to. In my opinion Elder Ballard did seem more like he was having a conversation than delivering pre-determined sound bites. I get that they have to be really careful what they say because people like us and over at reddit will pick it to pieces. Maybe it's a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Another thing that I thought was kind of interesting was that I picked up a couple of remarks along the lines of "you're senior, so should I start?" I can't remember the exact wording and I'm certainly not going to listen to it again, but it intrigued me because for this to even be an off the cuff comment, it must mean that seniority in the Quorum is something that is in the forefront of their minds.

LostGirl wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:33 pm After hearing the uproar over some of the comments on the Face to Face interview with Elder Oaks and Elder Ballard, I decided to watch it for myself so I could have an opinion not based on soundbites from others. This was my take. Obviously it is not a transcript but I've tried to get the wording as best as I could. I realise that a lot of my comments are sort of pointless too if you don't believe any of it, but I'm coming from the point of view of - if it is all true, how do these answers impact and help members?

That was a good review. I did not watch it and I think I am more confident with that decision after reading your comments on it. I rather think that I could have done a good job of mimicking their answers if I were trying to pretend to be an apostle.

Great post. Thanks for taking the time !

Thanks for doing this review Lost! It is excellent!

I went back and watched it too. It felt very scripted to me. They got that tweet from the girl in South America who said she wanted to join the church. And then half way through, one of the hosts reveals that she is a recent convert. It felt like the church was desperately tying to trick the YSAs into believing that the membership is still growing by leaps and bounds.

I'm glad that there were so many question about LGBT issues. This signals to me that the YSAs are very concerned with the church's current stance in one way or another. It shows that they haven't just swallowed the GAs bullsh*t teachings about the LGBT community. I was shocked at Oaks answer to essentially "be nice," when mere weeks ago when he was preaching a very different message about the LGBT community in GC.

Its becoming really clear to me that the lack of consistency even with an individual apostle points to severe not knowing what to do. So they are trying everything. Doublespeak really ends up backfiring in a big way. I really wonder if people come away from these feeling like these men are real prophets.

LostGirl wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:33 pm

How can I differentiate between the holy ghost and my own thoughts and feelings?
O: inspiration comes in the still small voice, not in the urgent impulses of doing what we want to do and reaching out in bias to our personal opinion. If he gets an impression to do something he doesn’t want to do, he thinks that is more authentic than if he gets an impression to do something he already wants to do.

B: be sure you are living right. Be sure that your own lives are being lived in such a way that you can receive these promptings. Say prayers. Stay in the scriptures. Simple things fortify you and give you a foundation and protection.

O: If you get an impression contrary to the scriptures, the commandments or the teachings of his leaders, then we know that it can’t be coming from the Holy Ghost. Gospel is consistent throughout.

Experience from someone whose parents said they had a revelation that they didn’t need to go to church or pay tithing anymore. Replied that they got this revelation from the wrong source. (laughter)

So many thoughts on this one.

Firstly, I got tired of "pray and read the scriptures" - it was repeated many times in this interview.

Secondly, Oaks first answer brings to mind this culture of "if it's not hard, you are not doing it right" that we seem to grasp onto in the church. Saying that impressions to do things that we don't want to do are more authentic is setting people up to not trust their own instincts or their own thoughts or feelings.

This is such a big deal! Oaks said that this is a problem we all have to deal with throughout our lives. I assume he includes himself? Monson? Joseph Smith? I would imagine that he feels he can usually discern spiritual promptings, but his answer makes me think he still has ambiguous experiences. I remember being told once that if you get a prompting, you should follow it, even if you aren't sure, and God will bless you. That could drive a person nuts. Was it a prompting to turn around on a road trip? Or was I just neurotic and hyper-vigilant to my gut feelings?

Also, he says that promptings to do what we DON'T want to do are more likely to be genuine. As a TBM, I almost always thought the hard way or the self sacrificing way was the right way. I felt guilt over every little thing, even things that didn't matter. I wondered if all sorts of feelings were promptings, and if I didn't follow them, I'd feel guilty. This really took a toll on me, especially on my mission, and I really did try to be good. I never felt good enough, that's for sure. Maybe this kind of thing hasn't ever happened to Oaks. I think it might be a personality thing. This idea is not good for people like me.

LostGirl wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:33 pm After hearing the uproar over some of the comments on the Face to Face interview with Elder Oaks and Elder Ballard, I decided to watch it for myself so I could have an opinion not based on soundbites from others. This was my take. Obviously it is not a transcript but I've tried to get the wording as best as I could. I realise that a lot of my comments are sort of pointless too if you don't believe any of it, but I'm coming from the point of view of - if it is all true, how do these answers impact and help members?

Thanks for this. I don't think I would have watched the whole thing, so it's nice to have a synopsis.

Q was what would you suggest for someone strugging with OCD and anxiety

B: said he has had moments where he has struggled with anxiety. Not sure anxiety is a terrible thing as long as we keep it in balance. Anxiety help to make you move and keep your life going?

Do they even know what anxiety or OCD really is? Struggling with it at moments is different from dealing with the oppressive terror that anxiety can be and is.

Non member asks how she can join the church and how she can know it is true

Laughter

B: . . .

The thing that anyone can have in their hand to know whether this church is true is the book of Mormon.

This is such a fallacy, and an outright lie (if they had the eyes to see it).

Two sister missionaries came to my door several months ago. They totally could not comprehend how I could believe the book was "true" and at the same time resign from the LDS Church. They showed me the blurb in the front that seemed to make that the claim. I told them that was not part of the scriptures (of what Joseph had translated). They could not comprehend. Even when I pointed out that many nonLDS religions who claimed Joseph as their founder believed the book to be true, it did not compute.

Ask questions. But only the not-doubtful ones because doubt is condemned. I found it hard to follow his logic here.

I'm totally with you on this one. Wanting to know the truth about something has nothing to do with whether you ask because you are doubting, or whether you ask because you are curious. Truth shouldn't be afraid of anyone, including doubters.

The female host asked for some advice as she is a new member
B: Told her to enjoy it. Ask questions. If friends can’t answer, take it to RSP or bishop or someone you trust.
O: new convert needs righteous routines. Analyse what temptations you need to go out of your way to avoid. Added another phrase “holy habits”.

I don't comprehend why God is not in their answers. Neither are the scriptures. God is the only source of all truth, not some lay leaders nor men whose livelihood and/or power at stake if you leave.

Another thing that I thought was kind of interesting was that I picked up a couple of remarks along the lines of "you're senior, so should I start?" I can't remember the exact wording and I'm certainly not going to listen to it again, but it intrigued me because for this to even be an off the cuff comment, it must mean that seniority in the Quorum is something that is in the forefront of their minds.

Absolutely. You can see that in the order in which they come to and leave the stand during general conferences. I understand it even goes so far as to extend to who gets served first if they have a box of chocolates to share.