NOM

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:12 pm**

It's been a while y'all. Mormonism hasn't really been around me much, the longer I'm out, the less I think of it.

My mother received a letter in the mail from her ex-husband's bishop regarding a cancellation of their sealing. While the letter spells out that her children are still sealed to her, she has been in tears because she believes that she can no longer get to the highest level of the celestial kingdom.

Yeah, it makes me mad. She did nothing wrong. He cheated on her many, many times and was emotionally abusive to her. She has poured her life into this religion and through no fault of her own she is cheated out of heaven in her beliefs.

Adam shall be punished for his own sins. But not Eve, she's screwed.

Posted: **Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:49 am**

Damn. I'm so sorry for your poor mom... What a messed up idea.

Posted: **Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:54 am**

I can empathize with your mother's pain. When dealing with sealing cancellations, the whole thing is a big mixed mess, and it can go both ways.

I have a friend who went through the wringer. His wife was ULTRA-ULTRAL-ORTHODOX, and also filled with hate and judgment she is unaware of because of her phariseeism. They had 9 children together, and through some struggles, she decided "to hell with him" and ended it. She gutted him financially (and lies about the money she makes under the table, as well as to her bishop), and remarried.

There was drama for years and year. I was there once and overheard a conversation on the telephone between them. She ranted for 45 min, and he literally (and I don't think I am exaggerating), got 3 sentences in during that 45 min. It was so lop-sided and comical it was almost unbelievable. Anyway, he had a child ask him directly to end the drama...please dad, end the drama. He made the hardest choice he ever made, which was to sign the paper to allow the children to be adopted by the new father.

Don't judge him folks. You weren't there. I understand why he did that, was right there with him at the time, and it was an act of love. With the way this mother was handling it, she was damaging her children. He did what he did to save the pain of his children.

And then the fun started with temple sealing cancellations with his children...while this new Celestial Family (what a joke) was put together.

This man wasn't contacted, consulted, or anything with regards to this; it just happened and was done. WHAM!

I remember some of the pain he felt; though he knew it would go this way, he was devastated by the way it was handled and how he became a non-person as it were. He subsequently left the church, believing all this Families are Forever bullsh!t is really about "pay your 10% forever", and THEN you are favored.

Orthodoxy can really hurt with how policy is created and administered.

So many people are married for "time and all eternity"....and the church emphasizes over and over the "eternity" portion. Why not place a little more effort on the "time" portion,...hunh? If the church did that, perhaps the "eternity" might work a little better.

Duh!

Posted: **Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:47 am**

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:54 am So many people are married for "time and all eternity"....and the church emphasizes over and over the "eternity" portion. Why not place a little more effort on the "time" portion,...hunh? If the church did that, perhaps the "eternity" might work a little better.

That was one of my big realizations in the early part of my journey out. The Church, and also many other Western churches, put a huge emphasis on the next life and set about destroying this one.

Posted: **Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:31 am**

Jeffret wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:47 am
Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:54 am So many people are married for "time and all eternity"....and the church emphasizes over and over the "eternity" portion. Why not place a little more effort on the "time" portion,...hunh? If the church did that, perhaps the "eternity" might work a little better.
That was one of my big realizations in the early part of my journey out. The Church, and also many other Western churches, put a huge emphasis on the next life and set about destroying this one.

I, too, thought Rob's comment hit the nail on the head. I'm not sure if I'm frustrated with or sad for my neighbors. They believe that I should have just toughed it out, as they apparently do, because things will be better in the next life. They don't like that I had parents who did exactly that and it didn't go well. I'm tired of making my neighbors cry.

Doc, I'm so sorry your mom is gong through this. I want to go beyond actual sympathy and try to provide some words of comfort you could give your mom. The first is the typical "succor" the women get: don't worry, there's always polygamy and I'm sure some man will have you. Or there's the actual reassurance that her children are still sealed to her. If her eternal exaltation were at stake in any way, that would probably not be the case. As for the details about this, let the usual mantras of "we don't know" and "have faith" work in your favor.

Posted: **Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:41 am**

Rob4Hope, I absolutely do not judge the man. There are many things we do in divorce that people question because they don't understand the whole situation. Many of my friends are quite judgmental to the fact that I get along with my ex-wife when I'm "supposed" to be hateful or something. Everyone loves to look on another's relationship and make judgments, but they feel the world just misunderstands them if they go through the same.

The only thing that I conversationally said was "I'm going all Mormon on this" and posted my thoughts and feelings on the second Article of Faith. I have expressed my sympathy in the feelings of injustice she is going through (since through no fault of my own, my "eternity" was ripped by the same religion, although I didn't mention that).

I am also attempting to give her lots of grandma time in the next few days, which she absolutely loves.

My mother ultimately wrote her letter to say, "He owes me no money, and I'm cool". She didn't want to open a wound further by making a deal out of it. My mother is 100% anti-drama, and her response was beautifully written.

But, I went through this. One thing that I absolutely hate about some religious sects is that they control heaven. They get to say themselves who goes to heaven. They get to be the judge of hearts. They get to be the one who decides who is good and who is bad. If you buy into it, then a complete lack of understand can lead to eternal consequences. The sins of others can be placed upon the heads of you.

Posted: **Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:11 pm**

When some more healing time passes, she will probably realize there is no loss because that jerk is not CK material to begin with. And in Mormon doctrine, if he isn't going to CK, then she would be assigned to someone else. But I really think that should be worded that she gets to choose someone else, someone worthy of her. Or maybe you can point out to her that he may pretend to be CK material, but God does not judge by outward appearances and shallow things like the WoW. God judges by how we treat others, and this dude has flunked. Eventually she will realize she doesn't want that turd for eternity. As my old bachelor uncle used to say, eternity is a hell of a long time. You and God both think she deserves better.

Posted: **Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:21 pm**

document wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:41 am The only thing that I conversationally said was "I'm going all Mormon on this" and posted my thoughts and feelings on the second Article of Faith. I have expressed my sympathy in the feelings of injustice she is going through (since through no fault of my own, my "eternity" was ripped by the same religion, although I didn't mention that).

I totally get your position. I hope my 'additions' didn't diminish or derail--wasn't meant that way. I just know this sealing cancellation thing, with how the doctrines are interwoven, can just cause so much heartache all over.

Didn't GIT say something above about polygamy, and sometimes women are thrown a crumb of hope that they will be scooped up into a plural marriage and exaltation will still be an option?

I understand where GIT is coming from, and its mixed (and I think she would consider it that way too.) (Comments GIT?). This "doctrine" is supposed to give hope but does it from what I consider a purely misogynistic slant, polygamy somehow being "an answer". That is probably another thread altogether. Having said that, however, I do know some TBMs who actually do look at polygamy as a way to be exalted, though I don't understand that perspective myself.

document wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:41 am I am also attempting to give her lots of grandma time in the next few days, which she absolutely loves.

Good for you!

document wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:41 am But, I went through this. One thing that I absolutely hate about some religious sects is that they control heaven. They get to say themselves who goes to heaven. They get to be the judge of hearts. They get to be the one who decides who is good and who is bad. If you buy into it, then a complete lack of understanding can lead to eternal consequences. The sins of others can be placed upon the heads of you.

This last section really resonates with me. I understand you, feel the same way, and it makes me angry. Who are "they" to get to judge the hearts of others?

I was once TBM, and from that perspective, I just kind of ignored the judgement inherent in some of these policy choices. Now that I am out, I look back and see LDS Leadership as narcissistic and uber arrogant. They wield the voice of GOD and decry anyone who challenges their authority.

Posted: **Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:22 pm**

alas wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:11 pm Eventually she will realize she doesn't want that turd for eternity.

Amen

Posted: **Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:33 am**

document wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:41 am But, I went through this. One thing that I absolutely hate about some religious sects is that they control heaven. They get to say themselves who goes to heaven. They get to be the judge of hearts. They get to be the one who decides who is good and who is bad. If you buy into it, then a complete lack of understand can lead to eternal consequences. The sins of others can be placed upon the heads of you.

Reminds me of something a wise man is thought to have said:

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

I believe the LDS church is 10/10 on the Pharisee checklist. (I should make this checklist.)

Posted: **Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:16 am**

Whoa, this is some scary stuff folks. The term “You can be right, or you can be happy” really applies here. Your friend shows a lot of maturity but it is difficult to imagine how it would be to live with someone so steeped in what they “know” is right for her nine children. A forty five minute conversation and he gets in three sentences....whoa.

And to think that all this time and all eternity business was supposed to bring happiness...(sigh).

Posted: **Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:47 pm**

Gatorbait wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:16 am Whoa, this is some scary stuff folks. The term “You can be right, or you can be happy” really applies here. Your friend shows a lot of maturity but it is difficult to imagine how it would be to live with someone so steeped in what they “know” is right for her nine children. A forty five minute conversation and he gets in three sentences....whoa.

And to think that all this time and all eternity business was supposed to bring happiness...(sigh).

Yeh...I was amazed myself. And it happened. I remember glancing at the clock during the conversation. She spoke so loudly that I overheard some of what she said. And she is RIGHT...with God behind her.

But don't get me wrong here--this is not a one-way type of deal. In this case, it was the woman in the relationship. I am aware of a similar situation where it is the man. He is RIGHT, and that 'rightness' justified him (in his own eyes) of some pretty nasty things. This reminds me of the lies told by John Taylor in England where he took an additional wife after assuring people in public mind you, that monogamy was all there was to it.

The church's attitude of "right makes might" (backwards I know, but that is how they apply it) is crazy. It is used to justify all kinds of things.

Posted: **Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:52 pm**

document wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:41 am One thing that I absolutely hate about some religious sects is that they control heaven. They get to say themselves who goes to heaven. They get to be the judge of hearts. They get to be the one who decides who is good and who is bad. If you buy into it, then a complete lack of understand can lead to eternal consequences. The sins of others can be placed upon the heads of you.

I see a strange similarity between "eternal families" and the "indulgences" that Martin Luther was upset about. In both cases you have to pay to play.

Posted: **Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:32 pm**

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:54 am I can empathize with your mother's pain. When dealing with sealing cancellations, the whole thing is a big mixed mess, and it can go both ways.

I have a friend who went through the wringer. His wife was ULTRA-ULTRAL-ORTHODOX, and also filled with hate and judgment she is unaware of because of her phariseeism. They had 9 children together, and through some struggles, she decided "to hell with him" and ended it. She gutted him financially (and lies about the money she makes under the table, as well as to her bishop), and remarried.

There was drama for years and year. I was there once and overheard a conversation on the telephone between them. She ranted for 45 min, and he literally (and I don't think I am exaggerating), got 3 sentences in during that 45 min. It was so lop-sided and comical it was almost unbelievable. Anyway, he had a child ask him directly to end the drama...please dad, end the drama. He made the hardest choice he ever made, which was to sign the paper to allow the children to be adopted by the new father.

Don't judge him folks. You weren't there. I understand why he did that, was right there with him at the time, and it was an act of love. With the way this mother was handling it, she was damaging her children. He did what he did to save the pain of his children.

And then the fun started with temple sealing cancellations with his children...while this new Celestial Family (what a joke) was put together.

This man wasn't contacted, consulted, or anything with regards to this; it just happened and was done. WHAM!

I remember some of the pain he felt; though he knew it would go this way, he was devastated by the way it was handled and how he became a non-person as it were. He subsequently left the church, believing all this Families are Forever bullsh!t is really about "pay your 10% forever", and THEN you are favored.

Orthodoxy can really hurt with how policy is created and administered.

So many people are married for "time and all eternity"....and the church emphasizes over and over the "eternity" portion. Why not place a little more effort on the "time" portion,...hunh? If the church did that, perhaps the "eternity" might work a little better.

Duh!

No judgement from me. My husband signed the papers to allow his children to be adopted by the trophy husband - though totally unrelated to Mormonism, completely related to a very vindictive ex and the pain is still pervasive. I feel for your friend. I was there for many a screaming conversation on her part and no ability to interject from DH. The most noteworthy being how he was a child molester because he told his daughter that he loved her.

On the Mormonism side, my family is concerned that my children were never sealed to anyone. My ex and I never went through the temple, so in their eyes my kids are just hanging out there in limbo, unsealed to either side of the family.

Posted: **Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:34 pm**

I considered polygamy as a crumb thrown to women when it came to light my father wouldn't be in the CK. Let's just say he committed a sin where he isn't even a candidate for the CK. That sin was the culmination of a half a century of abusing my mother. So, here's my mother. Celestially adrift. Excellent woman. She made all the right choices. She wasn't perfect, but she did nothing wrong. She has earned the right to be a first wife. However, what is likely in our doctrine is she is to be picked as a multiple. So, here's this woman, excellent woman. A woman who should be crowned to sit next to her husband, getting downgraded, simply because of her husband's choices.

So, no. It isn't really a comfort when you really think about it, but a lot of people don't think about it. Personally, I find this ranking of wives repugnant. My mother said many times that marriage isn't for everyone. I believe that were she offered eternal exaltation, but had to be married to obtain it, she would turn it down. I don't get all this eternal exaltation, either. I plan on turning down marriage, myself. I don't have to rule and reign. I am morally opposed to queen-bee-ism, except in the rare case of Beyonce. Women don't rule and reign, anyway. So, I personally see the non-marriage part of the CK much more enticing.

I have a friend who hopes to be assigned to dust Maxwell's library. Assisting Packer with his painting, Uchtdorf with his planes and any other assignment sounds like a much more interesting, much more independent way to spend eternity than eternal queen termite procreation.

Like alas said, she'll eventually realize she doesn't want the turd, anyway. Maybe she'll come to see the CK is still the CK and exaltation might not be all that great. Women do have options outside of marriage.

Posted: **Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:53 pm**

Give It Time wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:34 pm Women do have options outside of marriage.

I love this statement. And,..I want to add to it: men have options outside of marriage too.

I am single, not sealed to anyone (including my children if I understand the LDS theology correctly), and over the past year I have been trying on "singlehood" to see just how well it fits. You know...it ain't so bad. This is a big world, and there sure are a lot of things to learn and do. And despite I am not sealed to my children, I'm happy to focus on the "time" portion of the equation because I have a lot of love to still share.

If God damns me for doing that, then maybe I don't want him as a god.

Posted: **Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:07 pm**

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:53 pm
Give It Time wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:34 pm Women do have options outside of marriage.
I love this statement. And,..I want to add to it: men have options outside of marriage too.

I am single, not sealed to anyone (including my children if I understand the LDS theology correctly), and over the past year I have been trying on "singlehood" to see just how well it fits. You know...it ain't so bad. This is a big world, and there sure are a lot of things to learn and do. And despite I am not sealed to my children, I'm happy to focus on the "time" portion of the equation because I have a lot of love to still share.

If God damns me for doing that, then maybe I don't want him as a god.

Amen!

Posted: **Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:49 pm**

Good to hear from you Document.

All indications suggest that the real goal of Mormonism is to make sure as few families as possible are together forever. Imagine a church that said families are forever. Period. No complicated jumping through hoops and buying special ordinances.

Posted: **Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:11 am**

Sorry Document. I hate how the church controls people's minds.

NOM

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