NOM

Does anybody have a link to a video of people who left talking about happiness or meaning after a faith crisis?

We should make one!

Search for "I am an exmormon" on YouTube. I think there are several of them.

I thought this was good:
http://www.linkingarms.org/2014/11/12/our-story/
They talk about how they built something positive after leaving (disclaimer- I watched it over a year ago, I think). I also seem to remember Clay Christiensen's podcast on Mormon Stories being pretty good in that way, though it might be the later one. I believe he did two.

BriansThoughtMirror wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:42 pm I thought this was good:
http://www.linkingarms.org/2014/11/12/our-story/
They talk about how they built something positive after leaving (disclaimer- I watched it over a year ago, I think). I also seem to remember Clay Christiensen's podcast on Mormon Stories being pretty good in that way, though it might be the later one. I believe he did two.

Whoa, when I first read the name of the URL I thought it said Linkin' Garms. I'm not sure exactly what that might be but I guess it could be fun.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:10 pm

BriansThoughtMirror wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:42 pm I thought this was good:
http://www.linkingarms.org/2014/11/12/our-story/
They talk about how they built something positive after leaving (disclaimer- I watched it over a year ago, I think). I also seem to remember Clay Christiensen's podcast on Mormon Stories being pretty good in that way, though it might be the later one. I believe he did two.

Whoa, when I first read the name of the URL I thought it said Linkin' Garms. I'm not sure exactly what that might be but I guess it could be fun.

That is a mormon spinoff band from Linkin Park, where they play in their Garms. Haha!

BriansThoughtMirror wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:42 pm I thought this was good:
http://www.linkingarms.org/2014/11/12/our-story/
They talk about how they built something positive after leaving (disclaimer- I watched it over a year ago, I think). I also seem to remember Clay Christiensen's podcast on Mormon Stories being pretty good in that way, though it might be the later one. I believe he did two.

Interesting. DW and I watched the Sullivan story and it left her feeling like they were still unhappy and wandering in desperate search for a community after throwing theirs away.

I will check out Clay Christiensen's podcast. Thanks

Hmmm... Maybe I'm not remembering it correctly. Also, I think of the two podcasts with Clay, one was pretty angry and one seemed like he had started to heal and build something better. For me, it was helpful to see this stuff, but I'm several years in and am just now starting to feel some healing. I think it's harder with a family. I'm the only one who's out, and I still attend some stuff. At first I wanted to burn the whole thing down. Then I just felt trapped and defeated. Now, I finally feel like I'm getting some power back in my life, and I'm also starting to see some of the good again- even if it's only good for someone else.

Some things that have helped me heal:

1) Being open with loved ones. I don't think I could have even started to heal until I did that. I talked with my wife first, which was absolute hell, but after a time, we have both started healing. I talked with my immediate family members on the phone some months (years?) later. I wrote a letter to my inlaws. It's mostly out in the open now, and that has been an enormous relief.

2) Therapy, but I'm on my fourth therapist. The first one was an atheist nevermo who told me to divorce my wife. I only saw her twice. The second was a kind, understanding, non-judgemental exmo who believed in supporting anyone's spiritual journey no matter what they believed, including my wife. He halped for a while, but I think I mainly just vented to him. After a while, I felt like I was just spinning my wheels and not getting any healthier. The third was a believing Mormon, and he was kind and helpful in some different ways, until I really unloaded some major pains that came from church. He really just didn't believe me. That was the last time I went. My current therapist, who I've been seeing almost a year on and off, is really great. She's a nevermo with some kind of spiritual beliefs, but she isn't explicit about it, and doesn't judge any of my beliefs, even when I totally unload my most angry, cynical thoughts. She also pushes back on me sometimes and challenges some things. That has been helpful. I can't really tell if the therapy has caused the healing, or if just time and distance have done most of the work, or if it's a combination, but I'm starting to feel a lot better.

3) Distance from the church. The more I attend, the angrier I get. I don't mind service projects, but when I get too much church stuff going on, I can feel the anger building inside. When I distance myself from participating, I can see the good in it (the good in it for other people).

4) Studying neutral history, psychology, and other science. I've read some really interesting stuff lately. Some recent favorites:

Kathleen Flake's "The Politics of American Religious Identity"- I realized that early Mormons really, truly were unconstitutionally discriminated against, especially in regards to polygamy. I felt a lot of sympathy for early Mormon, including leaders. The US was cruel, and they were in a tough spot. It helped me see them as good, sincere people, whose rights I would support, even if I think they are misguided and wrong. Flake also lays out some things that are difficult for believing Mormons, but she's never unkind. She is Mormon herself.

Mark Noll's "The Civil War as a Theological Crisis"- It was so interesting to read how contemporaries of Brigham Young dealt with the issue of slavery, especially in regards to theology. Brigham Young truly was a man of his time. Of course, so were Frederick Douglass, Abraham Lincoln, and Harriet Beecher Stowe (well, a woman of her time). I expected this book to make me angrier at Young, but instead it just put him in context. I actually feel more forgiving toward him, though I think he was a terrible racist and he taught others that his racism came right from God, and I still think slavery was an absolute abomination. It was fascinating to see how people developed their ideas. Looking back, it all seems like an obvious evil, but at the time, sincere people came to all sorts of different conclusions. Don't get me wrong, I don't think slavery was OK, but I can feel just a twinge of "forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do". I was also really impressed with the people who saw the injustice of it all, and truly dug in doctrinally to figure out how to right wrongs in a way that fit their beliefs. Noll is a believing Christian.

David Herbert Donald's "Lincoln"- I'm currently reading this, and it's great. Again, Lincoln didn't come with his abolitionist ideas ready made, and he was still pretty racist. He had to develop as a human being. This book is also making me feel more forgiving, but still feel a desire to right wrongs. It also makes me feel like maybe I can do something with my life! We really are all just human, it seems. I always knew that, but I'm starting to FEEL it, too.

Kathryn Schulz's "Being Wrong"- If you've read much about common cognitive errors and biases, this will repeat a lot. It wasn't very scientific. However, she absolutely nails the experience of finding that your most basic, cherished beliefs are in fact wrong. This book also made me feel more forgiving, and less sure of myself. I feel like some of my self righteousness and certainty melted away with this one. Not my favorite read ever, but she really managed to change me (for the better, I think) in some ways that seem to have stuck.

Lesley Hazleton's "Thr First Muslim"- Awesome read! I loved it! It was so cool to read the story of another "Joseph Smith" as an outsider with no skin in the game. Hazleton is an agnostic Jew, and has a unique perspective. I wrote about this here:
https://briansthoughtmirror.wordpress.c ... -hazleton/

Anyway, I don't think any one book suddenly gave me a great wave of healing, and I'm not an expert on any of these topics. It's been a slow buildup that has gradually been changing my perspective, and I can only see it in retrospect. To me, it's been valuable, but your mileage may vary.

5) Taking a long break from internet Mormonism. I need the support and a place to talk sometimes, but after a while, I feel like it does me more harm than good (especially other forums). Thank you all for this forum- it keeps me much more balanced than my previous forums! I think there is a place (and a need) for venting rage, but I'm glad there's a place for more calm discussion, too. I've enjoyed participating here recently, but I may disappear for a long stretch again at any time. It's good for me.

6) Started doing something positive and non-religious. Due to some changes at work, I'm really enjoying what I'm doing these days. Also, I've started taking guitar playing very seriously, and my wife supports that. I practice an hour 6 days/week and then go a 3 hour jam most Thursdays! I LOVE it! It develops a skill I've been wanting to work on for years, it's a fun social thing with some fun people of all different ages, and it's something to really engage in that has nothing to do with Mormonism, pro or con. I've even had some jams with my siblings now, and my wife and I are going to do a small Christmas concert at our house for family! It's gonna be awesome! Christmas has been really hard for me the last few years- I think this will help! I don't know about any religious ideas, but I do love music, and I do love family, and I think I'll smoke some wings! It's something that we'll all look forward to, which I think is huge!

I've felt for a very long time like I was never going to be happy again. Seriously. It's been pretty bad. But, I'm starting to see that maybe things will be OK. That's been healing for me. It's all just little bits of change here and there over time. I still hate the sort of uncertainty I find myself in, but it's getting better.

EDIT- Oh, yeah, blogging has helped, too! I've only written three posts this year, but I managed to say some things that are very important to me. I've also been careful to think through each post for a long time to distance myself from anger and consider my biases. That has been pretty therapeutic, and maybe something I write will someday be helpful for somebody.

EDIT #2- Talking with JWs and ex-JWs! They are equally sincere on both sides as we Mormons/exmos/NOMs are. Seeing how they view each other and their experiences has shown me I'm not alone. Also, learning about the EXPERIENCES of people in other religions has been really valuable to me. Again, it turns out we're all just humans.

EDIT #3- Mindfulness meditation has been very helpful. I haven't had time for it in over a year, though. It has helped me to see things more clearly (I think so, at least).

EDIT #4- Anything by Jonathan Haidt. Look up his books and TED talks. He's a liberal atheist psychologist who researches morality, religion, and happiness. He seriously changed my perspective and shows how and why religion is important and good in many ways, even if it's not working for me. "The Happiness Hypothesis" and "The Righteous Mind" were really good. They didn't make me feel better immediately, though. They aren't self help books (I have a hard time imagining one that would work for me). The TED talks are a great way to start, especially these two:
https://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haid ... nscendence
https://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haid ... moral_mind
I love TED!

Oh, heck, here's two more. Miguel Ruiz's "The Four Agreements". I hated this the first time I picked it up. It felt like fluffy crap. I cam back to it later in a more Stage 5-ey mindset, and it was still fluffy, but I found the foundational principles to be awesome. This was right after reading Joseph Campbell's "The Hero With a Thousand Faces", which made me see the idea of religion very differently, though I think Campbell overreaches a great deal in some of his universalizing ideas. He makes connections that I don't think are really there. But the various stories he tells are awesome!

Also, Tara Brach's "Radical Acceptance: Embracing Life with the Heart of a Buddha" was fantastic for me when I read it. It was the kind of self forgiveness and acceptance I had been needing forever without ever knowing it. If I had read this earlier in my faith crisis, I would have hated it. But approaching it with the idea that I can accept what I want and reject what I want, I found I could accept (and needed) a lot of it. Super healing. So, maybe that was a self help book that worked for me! It doesn't all resonate with me, and some that did then doesn't now, but it was still awesome, and just what I needed at the time.

OK, I'm really done this time. I hope I didn't overly hijack this thread. Sorry! Sometimes I just feel the need to say everything in my head...

BriansThoughtMirror wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:48 amHmmm... Maybe I'm not remembering it correctly.

not necessarily, sometimes that can just be the interpretation depending on where one is in their FC.

This post was awesome, thanks. I guess I hoped that finding the truth would be easier Its been lots of pain, and that justifies what church leaders say about the "anti-mormon" information. Its easy for a TBM to believe that this is Satan's plan to destroy and make members miserable and that miserable people want company. Its nearly impossible to convince them that it could be better on the other side of the pain. Maybe it isn't.

I tried to let DW stay TBM, but unfortunately for her, we love each other. So leaving well enough alone isn't an option, when she has been taught a dogma of eternal torment for the dissenter, me her loved one.

So... I'd love to show that "the truth shall set us free" on the other side.

That is a great list of books. My nevermo co-worker suggested The Book of Joy by the Dahli Lama and Desmond Tutu I may try that one.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:13 pm I guess I hoped that finding the truth would be easier Its been lots of pain, and that justifies what church leaders say about the "anti-mormon" information. Its easy for a TBM to believe that this is Satan's plan to destroy and make members miserable and that miserable people want company. Its nearly impossible to convince them that it could be better on the other side of the pain. Maybe it isn't.

I tried to let DW stay TBM, but unfortunately for her, we love each other. So leaving well enough alone isn't an option, when she has been taught a dogma of eternal torment for the dissenter, me her loved one.

So... I'd love to show that "the truth shall set us free" on the other side.

Man, I hear you on wishing it was easier. I thought I was going to find another "Truth" when I accepted that my FC was real and actually happening. I now think truth is more elusive than I did then. I want to have certainty, but if I'm honest with myself, I don't think we can be 100% sure of anything. We can only make a lot of assumptions that fit what we see, then keep testing them and revising them as we go. I'm not sure there is any guarantee I'm even making progress, haha, but I am starting to feel better!

I too noticed how easy it is for our stories to reinforce TBM preconceptions about doubters/leave-takers. To that, I have to say, "oh, well". I can't likely justify my changes to them, no matter what I do. It is what it is. And sometimes that sucks.

As to your DW- I love mine too, and what has worked for me is this: I am open with her about my beliefs (mostly...), but I don't push them on her. She's an intelligent, good human being, and her journey is her own. Whether she ends up questioning is up to her. If Mormonism works for her, then good for her. I don't think it's my place to try to change her, so I try to be loving and supporting. She does the same for me. It's been hard to get to that point, and lots of things still are hard, but we keep doing better, I think. If I had tried to push my views, I think we'd be divorced. Instead, I tried to visualize what a mixed faith/no-faith home might look like- a home in which everyone was free to explore and seek truth for themselves, and still be loved and accepted. It was a beautiful image. I have had ups and downs as far as how close reality has come to that image. But, to me, that seems better than using pressure to change my loved ones' beliefs. I want my family to be free to think and be, not necessarily to think and be like me. I think.

To reinforce this for myself, I bought a big print of Norman Rockwell's "The Golden Rule", which I've always loved, and built a nice frame for it and hung it in our living room. I told my wife that it's a reminder for me to be nice to people, haha! I also told her that I love it because it shows people coming together in kindness, even though they have serious or even irreconcilable differences. I love seeing it every day. It's something that we both agree is positive, but it also represents my point of view. In the same room, we have a picture of Jesus, the Salt Lake Temple, and the family proclamation. We are both represented.

Also, I think I'm right. I think the evidence shows I'm right. I feel right. However, I realize that I am just human. Another equally reasonable human could come to very different conclusions than I have. People who disagree with me are not necessarily ignorant, stupid, or evil. Maybe I am the one who is wrong. I don't think that's true, and I've done my best to try to believe true things, but I could still be wrong. I think it's best to state and live my beliefs, but honor others who are doing and believing differently. That doesn't mean we can't discuss differences, but it does mean that we still respect each others' right to our own journey.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Admittedly, I'm biased towards a centerist position, since I'm trying to preserve a mixed family. Also, I think people are more important than beliefs.

That's two more cents!

I have to agree with Brian. Or is that his thought mirror reflection? I like the centrist position because it allows room for adjustments the most. I can make major adjustments or minor adjustments as I feel necessary to balance living with a TBM. Overtime the adjustments define the course and you find your own way. It just takes time.

Also, the secret to Postmo happiness begins with you. You get to create it which is the best part. You can copy from anyone you would like or stick your head in a hat and receive guidance from above. You will succeed in some areas, fail in others, and laugh at yourself for feeling stupid and shameful while paying for that new colored underwear. You can try booze, hookers, and blow. Or not. It's all up to you.

Welcome to free agency where the consequences are what they are and the guilt is what it is, if it is at all.

Pull out a few blank sheets of paper and create your own plan of happiness. Buy some erasers too. You'll need them.