NOM

I show up for an hour or so most Sundays, I give hundreds of dollars (fast offering - not counting my wife's tithing - probably equivalent to dropping money in the basket that they pass around in typical congregations) I show up for some of the non-Sunday activities, help with the occasional scouting project, and I even do janitorial work when they ask me. By just about any other church's standards I'm a model churchgoer. At least in a church where I don't have to convince other middle-aged men that I'm wearing my secret underwear according to the rules.

My next door neighbor goes to a 1-hour Episcopal sermon a few times a year, feels great about his degree of participation, and is considered a member in good standing. I attend Sacrament Meeting and sometimes Sunday school almost every week and I barely qualify as an apostate slacker who has jeopardized my family's eternal salvation. Go figure.

Possibly the most famous quotation from the Lectures on Faith in 6:7:

Joseph Smith wrote: "A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation".

The bar was set quite high from the beginning. You can't accuse the church of ingratitude for your activity. It's for your own good and salvation.

Corsair wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:55 pm Possibly the most famous quotation from the Lectures on Faith in 6:7:

Joseph Smith wrote: "A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation".

The bar was set quite high from the beginning. You can't accuse the church of ingratitude for your activity. It's for your own good and salvation.

Basically, it's the idea of you get out of it what you put into it. However, there comes a point of diminishing returns. I try to find that balance. The idea was introduced on NOM 1.0 to look at your church activity from the point of view of a consumer, especially if you're donating any money to the church. Now, I do believe in donating and giving freely, but when an organization implies that there is a price of admission for being fully involved--and it does--then it would be wise to look at the church as providing a product and service and balance your church attendance and donation amount so you don't feel resentful.

The church would be shocked, because this is God. However, in contemplating the abuse questions that were part of my faith realignment, I learned to really ponder things from the Lord's point of view. DV is a situation where people can lose their lives. DV is a situation that the church has allowed bishops to mishandle for many generations all over the world. The impact is huge in terms of time and space. Do I think Heavenly Father is pleased that a man can push his pregnant wife down the stairs (just an example that I know of, didn't happen to me,) and the bishop sides with the man and insists the wife stays in the marriage where she--and, eventually, her child--will continue to be in danger? The church is in no hurry to put good guidelines in the handbooks to put better practices in place. That means the leaders of the church are giving tacit approval for these things to continue. Do I think the Lord is okay with that? No.

That long tangent is to say, human frailty considered a factor, but are you truly getting out of church what you put into it? If the leaders don't provide a product and service that is reasonable return on investment of your time, energy and money, then I think the Lord is perfectly okay with your either putting in less time, energy and money or the church providing a better product and service. It is my perception this is a capitalistic church. I don't have a problem with that, but companies in a capitalistic market will alter products and services to meet consumer demand. I didn't make it up. I'm just applying the model.

Somewhere in The Gospels there's a short reference to Jesus's female disciples providing for Jesus out of their substance. I do connect this with how radically different Jesus's teachings were with what was accepted at the time. I wonder if the women exercised monetary influence to get him to teach doctrines of kindness and gentleness.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:24 pm I attend Sacrament Meeting and sometimes Sunday school almost every week and I barely qualify as an apostate slacker who has jeopardized my family's eternal salvation. Go figure.

I suspect God welcomes you with open arms even if your comrades in Mormonism make you feel less than adequate. In a room full of zealots, a pious person should never feel inadequate. Zealotry might blow their hair back, but it only rumples your own.

That Episcopalian neighbor might feel great because it was a good sermon, but I bet they did not furnish his two-year-old a chance to repeat his mommy's whispers and say, "Church is twoo. Name Jesus. Amen".

Corsair wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:55 pm Possibly the most famous quotation from the Lectures on Faith in 6:7:

Joseph Smith wrote: "A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation".

The bar was set quite high from the beginning. You can't accuse the church of ingratitude for your activity. It's for your own good and salvation.

I'm sure there's an empty bishop's chair somewhere that would love to have your butt in it, Corsair.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:55 am I'm sure there's an empty bishop's chair somewhere that would love to have your butt in it, Corsair.

I warned my ward that if they made me bishop I was going to introduce "Casual Sunday". The response was more positive than expected. Luckily, the Office of the First Presidency has to approve all bishop appointments. My background check will be far too spiritually horrifying to include me as a candidate.

Great Post! So very true! This is why is stopped attending at all! You just can’t attend a few times a year (Christmas and Easter) without being considered a second-class member!

Heck, my family has attended the neighborhood Methodist church a few times over the years (Christmas and Easter) and we consider ourselves members in good standing of that church! (I’ve recently decided to stop identifying to non-family members as someone who, “was raised mormon, but no longer follows it,” and just saying, “I go to a methodist church sometimes.” I guess I’m making the transition from NOM to formal ex-mo)

Corsair wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:55 pm Possibly the most famous quotation from the Lectures on Faith in 6:7:

Joseph Smith wrote: "A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation".

The bar was set quite high from the beginning. You can't accuse the church of ingratitude for your activity. It's for your own good and salvation.

What kind of faith is this? You mean Jim Jones, David Koresh, and Heaven's Gate (not to mention Warren Jeffs) had it right? Is that a powerful, saving faith?

By the way Hagoth, you're my hero.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:36 pmBy the way Hagoth, you're my hero.

Right back at ya, bro.