NOM

Woman says Roy Moore initiated sexual encounter when she was 14, he was 32

I guess Joseph Smith wasn't so unique. While I find Roy Moore detestable for many separate reasons, the point of this post has to do with sexual assault.

Sexual assault clearly has happened and continues to happen by powerful men. For many of us, learning about Joseph Smith's polygamy was painful and was often at least a catalyst for a faith crisis. I grew up knowing about early Utah polygamy, but didn't really know about JS. I don't know why learning about JS's polygamy was worse than knowing about BY's polygamy. Over the last 10-15 years, I think it has become harder for church members to be unaware of JS's polygamy. But for many, it's not dispositive of abuse or assault. It's not disqualifying. Even though it includes stories of 14 year-olds. This was and is very frustrating.

A year ago, when my country's pussy-grabber-in-chief was elected, I had similar feelings. Like people were okay condoning such terrible behavior and attitudes toward women, and feeling frustrated and dejected.

It will be interesting to see how this Roy Moore story is received. There seems to have been a shift over the past year with Harvey Weinstein and the subsequent #MeToo uprising. It is at least encouraging that more accountability seems to be at hand.

I guess my hope is that more connections between the current awareness and reckoning are also made with our church's founder. Maybe The Year of Polygamy podcast should advertise the early episodes with a #MeToo campaign for JS's wives.



As a disclaimer, I feel like I should mention that I'm a straight, white male with just about every privilege imaginable. I am coming late to any awareness, and I don't really know how to talk about it. I guess I'm working through on an anonymous board.

shadow wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:25 pmSexual assault clearly has happened and continues to happen by powerful men. For many of us, learning about Joseph Smith's polygamy was painful and was often at least a catalyst for a faith crisis. I grew up knowing about early Utah polygamy, but didn't really know about JS. I don't know why learning about JS's polygamy was worse than knowing about BY's polygamy.

For me, the bold highlight in the above quote is what makes Joseph's polygamy "worse" than Brigham's polygamy: The Corporation made every attempt possible to obfuscate Joseph's polygamy, and basically tried to blame all of the polygamous stuff on Brigham. It comes down to honesty.

And yes, the fact that both Joseph and Brigham (And MANY early "church leaders" and polygamous members) were sexual predators, preying on under-age girls makes it even worse.



P.S. For anyone out there reading this and thinking "We've always known about Joseph's polygamy", please cite entries in correlated church manuals, or in any other LDS Church publication or website, published before 2013. KTHXYBYE

shadow wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:25 pm Woman says Roy Moore initiated sexual encounter when she was 14, he was 32A year ago, when my country's pussy-grabber-in-chief was elected, I had similar feelings. Like people were okay condoning such terrible behavior and attitudes toward women, and feeling frustrated and dejected.

Don't forget Harvey Weinstein, Bill Clinton, Bill Cosby and a host of others. This kind of abuse seems all too common for anyone in a position of power over others. Why can't members even fathom this as a possibility with JS?

Hatch, Lee call on Alabama's Roy Moore to drop his Senate bid if underage sexual allegations are true

I'm glad that Lee and Hatch think the allegations are disturbing and that he should resign. Although, the qualifier that the allegations be true is garbage.

Maybe we should send a copy of the church essays to their offices. They might find some other deeply disturbing things in there, too.

The Salt Lake County Republican Party, too, joined the chorus of calls for Moore to get out of the race.
“New Rule: If you’ve had sex with a minor or lesser things like texted explicit pictures of your reproductive anatomy ... or anything like that, let’s go ahead and agree you’re not running for office. Glad we had this talk,” the party tweeted Thursday afternoon.

I know the Republican party in Utah is not technically the church, but . . . tomatoes/tomahtoes.

shadow wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:47 pm Hatch, Lee call on Alabama's Roy Moore to drop his Senate bid if underage sexual allegations are true

I'm glad that Lee and Hatch think the allegations are disturbing and that he should resign. Although, the qualifier that the allegations be true is garbage.

Maybe we should send a copy of the church essays to their offices. They might find some other deeply disturbing things in there, too.

The Salt Lake County Republican Party, too, joined the chorus of calls for Moore to get out of the race.
“New Rule: If you’ve had sex with a minor or lesser things like texted explicit pictures of your reproductive anatomy ... or anything like that, let’s go ahead and agree you’re not running for office. Glad we had this talk,” the party tweeted Thursday afternoon.

I know the Republican party in Utah is not technically the church, but . . . tomatoes/tomahtoes.

Hatch and Lee are stinking hypocrites. Some of the accusations against the Cheeto in Chief were about underage girls. Walking into the dressing room of a teen beauty pageant while the teens were dressing, and rape of a 13 year old. And the stinking hypocrites support tRump. Not only support, but lick his boots and most likely his butt too. Until the repukeblicans hold 45 accountable for his behavior, this former independent voter is never going to vote repukeblican again. Hillary was correct in calling all tRump supporters deplorable. Anyone who supported the pussy grabber is deplorable.

Moderators, if this is too far into the political, then feel free to delete.

As far as why the church wants to cover and hide JS's polygamy and not BY's, I do think JS's was worse, as well as the fact that Brigham practiced out in the open so it is known historical fact and impossible to hide, at least in the US.

But, as far as hiding the polygamy goes, my son met a member on his mission in Brazil who did not know that the Brigham branch of the Mormon church practiced polygamy at all, so I think the church did a pretty good job of hiding all polygamy. This bishop that my son met had been a member for 15 years before a missionary mentioned it to him. He was horrified and was still struggling with his faith crises three years later when my son knew him. In all his years in the church, the stuff that he could read in Portugees never mentioned it and not speaking English, he couldn't just read US history.

But, back to Joseph's polygamy being a bit worse. Joseph married two 14 year old girls. He married women who were still living with their legal husband and continued to live with their legal husband after sleeping with Joseph. So, yeah, Joseph was guilty of polyamory, as he was married to more than one woman, and some of the women were married to more than one man all at once. Joseph married younger girls than Brigham and Joseph used worse coercion in getting the females to go along with him. I don't know of any stories of Brigham telling a reluctant victim that he would be destroyed if they did not cooperate. Brigham it seems was open with his first wife, rather than constantly lying about it. Joseph broke all those "rules" in D&C 132 about how poligamy was to happen. Joseph was just slimy about the whole thing, coercing women, lying, sleeping with his wife's best friends, foster daughters, teenaged servants, while with Brigham it was *just* regular old polygamy,

Jeff Flake on Twitter wrote:Come on, Republicans. Is this who we are? This cannot be who we are.

Seems like someone should point Jeff Flake to the polygamy essays, too. Might have some similar sentiments.

Honestly, that statement is a pretty succinct way to describe how learning about unsavory church history was for me.

"Come one, Mormons. Is this who we are? This cannot be who we are."

It doesn't take long to realize that yes, this is exactly who the Mormons are.


*Edited to fix link

Perhaps Roy Moore should consult FairMormon on how to explain his dating profile in his 30s. The ultimate explanation for the polygamy of Joseph Smith and the early Mormons is simply this: They truly believed they were following God's commandments through inspiration. Inspriration is personal and goes under the cover of not needing a "secular" or "logical" explanation.

If Roy Moore truly believes that he was following God's commandments through inspiration, then we cannot argue against him from a theological basis. Moore was an older man who dates a younger woman for two to three months with her mother's approval and doesn't have sex with her. The girl was at the age of consent. Strictly speaking, nothing was technically or legally wrong.

However, I can use my personal inspiration to say that this looks really creepy. From the standpoint of expecting better actions from men and women who want to be political leaders, this looks improper and I would not want want to trust him with the reigns of power just like I would not trust him with my teenage daughters. It's increasingly hard to find political, religious, and social leaders that don't have something incredibly stupid in their background. Positions of power simply attract the kind of people that should not be trusted with power.

shadow wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:25 pm
<snip>

I guess my hope is that more connections between the current awareness and reckoning are also made with our church's founder. Maybe The Year of Polygamy podcast should advertise the early episodes with a #MeToo campaign for JS's wives.



As a disclaimer, I feel like I should mention that I'm a straight, white male with just about every privilege imaginable. I am coming late to any awareness, and I don't really know how to talk about it. I guess I'm working through on an anonymous board.

It's great to have you as an ally.

I'm hopeful that more people inside the church will make the connection between the powerful sickos and JS. But it is going to be a really slow process. You are right, the climate is changing. I was shocked at how many women in my RS posted #MeToo on their FB. Rape culture and victim blaming is strong in the church, and because of that I think it is hard for women to even see, let alone publicly admit, that they are victims. It's the first step, but it's a long journey.

Mitt Romney tweeted wrote:Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections. I believe Leigh Corfman. Her account is too serious to ignore. Moore is unfit for office and should step aside.

Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not for finding the fruits of a prophet.

Corsair wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:22 pm Perhaps Roy Moore should consult FairMormon on how to explain his dating profile in his 30s. The ultimate explanation for the polygamy of Joseph Smith and the early Mormons is simply this: They truly believed they were following God's commandments through inspiration. Inspriration is personal and goes under the cover of not needing a "secular" or "logical" explanation.

If Roy Moore truly believes that he was following God's commandments through inspiration, then we cannot argue against him from a theological basis. Moore was an older man who dates a younger woman for two to three months with her mother's approval and doesn't have sex with her. The girl was at the age of consent. Strictly speaking, nothing was technically or legally wrong.

As far as I understand it, the consent age in Alabama may exclude the 16 and 17 year old from criminality. Not the 14 year old Leigh Corfman, though. Moore had her undress to her underwear and touch his genitals through his underwear. It's been a long time since I had criminal law, but looking to the Alabama code, what's described by Leigh Corfman pretty clearly falls under the Class C Felony of Enticing child to enter vehicle, house, etc., for immoral purposes, as well as Sexual Abuse in the Second Degree (Section 13A-6-67)

Section 13A-6-69 Enticing child to enter vehicle, house, etc., for immoral purposes. wrote:(a) It shall be unlawful for any person with lascivious intent to entice, allure, persuade, or invite, or attempt to entice, allure, persuade, or invite, any child under 16 years of age to enter any vehicle, room, house, office, or other place for the purpose of proposing to such child the performance of an act of sexual intercourse or an act which constitutes the offense of sodomy or for the purpose of proposing the fondling or feeling of the sexual or genital parts of such child or the breast of such child, or for the purpose of committing an aggravated assault on such child, or for the purpose of proposing that such child fondle or feel the sexual or genital parts of such person.

As it pertains to Joseph Smith, this thread is enlightening and echoes the arguments used to defend Joseph Smith. The problem in the religious eye may just be that Roy Moore wasn't married to the 14 year old Leigh Corfman. As far as I understand it, her mother could have consented to marriage. (Moore wasn't married at the time.) That may have satisfied the legal and religious tests for Moore. With Joseph Smith, he was married, so he just happened to receive revelation making it again okay as to a religious test. (Not sure what Joseph's situation legally was. Polygamy wasn't legal, but I don't know what statutory rape laws were on the books at the time.)

But apart from any legal or religious test, In both instances, these men fail a moral test in my book.

Mike Lee on Twitter wrote:Having read the detailed description of the incidents, as well as the response from Judge Moore and his campaign, I can no longer endorse his candidacy for the US Senate.

Someone send this man In Sacred Loneliness. There are some detailed descriptions there.

Like Alabama Republicans, most Mormons will silence their conscience to preserve their belief in the organization to which they pledge their fealty. It says a lot about a person when they are willing to rationalize sickening and harmful behavior to maintain support for the organization they give their loyalty to, be it the Alabama Republican Party or the LDS Church. Both instances evidence a failure of conscience and moral judgment. And both make my blood boil.