NOM

In light of the most recent mass shooting at the church in Sutherland Springs Texas, for those of you that still go to church, would you consider packing heat as a result?

This has happened in LDS churches before (to a much smaller degree).

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/08/30/cal ... index.html

I know people that have carried concealed weapons to church before. For those of you that own firearms, would you consider carrying a concealed weapon to church?

The Mormon Church prohibits firearms in their churches:
https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2 ... r=1#21.2.4

Should more parishioners carry guns in church? The Mormon church is one of two in Utah that say no to firearms

The handbook has no legal authority unless backed by state law. So it then depends on your states laws about concealed carry in houses of worship. In Utah, the law requires churches to publicly notify annually if they wish to exclude concealed carry, which the LDS church has done. That said, if you have a permit and get caught, it is merely an infraction in Utah. You won't lose a permit over it. The fact that the GAs have armed security details guarding them 24/7 while denying that right to members is disgusting IMO.

We had a ward executive clerk who reportedly idolized Porter Rockwell and always carried a gun to church. It made me deeply uncomfortable. His son and his family came to our house recently, and at the end of a nice evening the son decided to reveal he had been carrying a gun the whole time. This led to a series of my feeling shocked, then annoyed, and now angry.

I'm not a particularly confrontational guy, and this is obviously a family that can't take two steps away from their firearms, so rather than actually talk about it, they probably just won't be getting another invite. And I'll continue to feel not 100% comfortable going to their house, because they always want to show off their most recent lethal acquisition.

Look man, you're holding a gun. I'm not going to tell you how much disdain I have for your hobby. But take a freaking hint. How little interest do I need to show to get you to shut up and stop pulling them out???!

Ugh. Holy forking shirtballs, it's annoying.

/rant

Enoch Witty wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:04 am We had a ward executive clerk who reportedly idolized Porter Rockwell and always carried a gun to church. It made me deeply uncomfortable. His son and his family came to our house recently, and at the end of a nice evening the son decided to reveal he had been carrying a gun the whole time. This led to a series of my feeling shocked, then annoyed, and now angry.

I'm not a particularly confrontational guy, and this is obviously a family that can't take two steps away from their firearms, so rather than actually talk about it, they probably just won't be getting another invite. And I'll continue to feel not 100% comfortable going to their house, because they always want to show off their most recent lethal acquisition.

Look man, you're holding a gun. I'm not going to tell you how much disdain I have for your hobby. But take a freaking hint. How little interest do I need to show to get you to shut up and stop pulling them out???!

Ugh. Holy forking shirtballs, it's annoying.

/rant

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:34 am The fact that the GAs have armed security details guarding them 24/7 while denying that right to members is disgusting IMO.

Do you know for a fact that LDS Security goons assigned to GA's actually cary firearms?

wtfluff wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:48 am

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:34 am The fact that the GAs have armed security details guarding them 24/7 while denying that right to members is disgusting IMO.

Do you know for a fact that LDS Security goons assigned to GA's actually cary firearms?

Yes, I worked with a retired policeman that joined the security detail for the COB. The church hires retired cops and federal agents that are LDS. They are always armed where it is legal to be armed.

Jeffret wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:12 am The Mormon Church prohibits firearms in their churches:
https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2 ... r=1#21.2.4

Should more parishioners carry guns in church? The Mormon church is one of two in Utah that say no to firearms

Has the handbook every stopped this group from wanting something different?

If this was something I decided to do, I wouldn't tell anyone about it. No one in my ward would have a clue. It would be very concealed, and would only come out if a psycho came in and started killing people.

I understand and respect that there are people here that don't like guns and are made uncomfortable by them. I am not one of those people. I was raised around guns. My dad sounds like Enoch Witty's ward clerk. I'm guess I'm curious if there are others here, that own firearms, that go to church, that would be willing to violate the handbook (for whatever authority you feel it holds), and take a concealed weapon to church.

I am deeply ponderizing the topic now.

Obviously what happened this week was horrific and I understand the desire to protect oneself from these scenarios.

That said, as someone not from your country, the idea of solving the problem with more guns strikes me as insane. The American culture of guns is really foreign to me. And I do own a couple rifles and know many in my native land who I'd describe as gun nuts. I don't think any of them would insist on bringing their guns to church though but who knows...

azflyer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:58 am If this was something I decided to do, I wouldn't tell anyone about it. No one in my ward would have a clue. It would be very concealed, and would only come out if a psycho came in and started killing people.

I understand and respect that there are people here that don't like guns and are made uncomfortable by them. I am not one of those people. I was raised around guns. My dad sounds like Enoch Witty's ward clerk. I'm guess I'm curious if there are others here, that own firearms, that go to church, that would be willing to violate the handbook (for whatever authority you feel it holds), and take a concealed weapon to church.

The CHI statement is really more of a guideline than an actual rule. As with the case of many things in the CHI, pretty much nobody actually knows about it. Unwritten rules cause lots of social opprobrium when violated. Written rules that nobody knows about are easily ignored.

I'm not too surprised at a NOM violating CHI guidelines. Lots of TBMs also do, though they might feel a little guilty about it.

As noted above, in Utah the prohibition is more than just a guideline. It's an actual rule -- indeed the rule of law. Would you also feel comfortable violating that authority there?

I live in Arizona. Our gun laws are VERY open here. I'm fairly certain there is no prohibition on carrying a concealed weapon in a church. In fact, in Arizona, you don't even need to have a concealed weapons license to carry a concealed handgun (I'm not a fan of that law by the way). We refer to it as constitutional carry.

Shortly after the movie theater shooting in Denver, my wife and I went to the movies. I carried a concealed pistol despite the fact that it was posted as being prohibited. In general, I just don't like carrying a concealed weapon. I feel like it's an enormous responsibility that a person takes up on them-self, and quite candidly, I don't like that burden. But at the same time, I've been through extensive training and I used to shoot competitively, so I feel like if anyone should be carrying, it should be me.

Maybe I should be asking a different question.

Does anyone here think that the issues that we are all aware of in the LDS church potentially make it a 'target' for a mass shooting? Am I more likely to be the victim of a mass shooting in sacrament meeting, or at the mall?

Sorry if this is getting a bit pedantic. I had a real crappy day yesterday, and this conversation is distracting me from other things I don't want to think about.

azflyer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:06 am I live in Arizona. Our gun laws are VERY open here. I'm fairly certain there is no prohibition on carrying a concealed weapon in a church. In fact, in Arizona, you don't even need to have a concealed weapons license to carry a concealed handgun (I'm not a fan of that law by the way). We refer to it as constitutional carry.

Shortly after the movie theater shooting in Denver, my wife and I went to the movies. I carried a concealed pistol despite the fact that it was posted as being prohibited. In general, I just don't like carrying a concealed weapon. I feel like it's an enormous responsibility that a person takes up on them-self, and quite candidly, I don't like that burden. But at the same time, I've been through extensive training and I used to shoot competitively, so I feel like if anyone should be carrying, it should be me.

Maybe I should be asking a different question.

Does anyone here think that the issues that we are all aware of in the LDS church potentially make it a 'target' for a mass shooting? Am I more likely to be the victim of a mass shooting in sacrament meeting, or at the mall?

Sorry if this is getting a bit pedantic. I had a real crappy day yesterday, and this conversation is distracting me from other things I don't want to think about.

Just my opinion, your chances of being murdered at either location are statistically insignificant. If it were me I would worry more about dying of heart disease and start exercising more and eating better. But the nice thing is you have a choice of how prepared you wish to be. As humans we are all motivated by fear. We don't fear the mundane risks enough and we are programmed to fear the unlikely risks the most.

Enoch Witty wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:04 am His son and his family came to our house recently, and at the end of a nice evening the son decided to reveal he had been carrying a gun the whole time.

WOW

WTF? Who does that? That is so crazy/creepy!

azflyer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:06 am Does anyone here think that the issues that we are all aware of in the LDS church potentially make it a 'target' for a mass shooting? Am I more likely to be the victim of a mass shooting in sacrament meeting, or at the mall?

Probably not much different, though I'd guess the mall has a slightly higher likelihood. The higher danger seems to be work, as more mass shootings occur at a workplace connected to the shooter than any other single location category.

The best indicator for a mass shooter seems to be someone with a history of domestic and other abuse and violence. That seems to be the case at the Texas church recently. The LDS church certainly has abusers in or connected with it, so there's that risk. The mall is probably a higher risk on that one.

Another common situation in mass murders is retaliatory violence among gangs and others engaged in illegal activity. These tend to occur in poorer neighborhoods and to often be ignored. Mormon churches are generally in pretty white-bread neighborhoods with pretty white, bland participants. Once again, the mall is probably a little higher risk.

Another one is white terrorists, upset with the government, attempting to enforce white supremacy or right-wing values. (There are a lot less left-wing killers than right-wing, in cases where there is a readily identifiable political basis.) These tend to attack government sites or sites with a minority population. In spite of the Church's close alignment with Utah government, the LDS Church isn't likely to be much of a target for anti-government extremists. Certainly, the LDS Church is known for being a hot minority gathering space. Again, the higher risk probably goes to the mall.

From there, the motivations are a hodge-podge of different things. As Bob Geldorf wrote about a mass murder in San Diego in 1979, "They can see no reasons, 'Cuz there are no reasons, What reasons do you need?" ("I Don't Like Mondays")

MoPag wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:38 am

Enoch Witty wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:04 am His son and his family came to our house recently, and at the end of a nice evening the son decided to reveal he had been carrying a gun the whole time.

WOW

WTF? Who does that? That is so crazy/creepy!

Yeah, I know. And we were having such a good evening and had just agreed to go to their house for Thanksgiving... now I have to figure out a way to get out of it. I'm thinking just saying I don't want to go, but it's convincing my wife that's going to be the hard part.

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:31 am Just my opinion, your chances of being murdered at either location are statistically insignificant. If it were me I would worry more about dying of heart disease and start exercising more and eating better. But the nice thing is you have a choice of how prepared you wish to be. As humans we are all motivated by fear. We don't fear the mundane risks enough and we are programmed to fear the unlikely risks the most.

This is great advice!

MoPag wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:38 am

Enoch Witty wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:04 am His son and his family came to our house recently, and at the end of a nice evening the son decided to reveal he had been carrying a gun the whole time.

WOW

WTF? Who does that? That is so crazy/creepy!

I don't mean to poke on either of you here, but when I read Enoch's story, I thought it sounded fairly normal....

.... maybe I'm just weird.

azflyer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:05 pm

MoPag wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:38 am

Enoch Witty wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:04 am His son and his family came to our house recently, and at the end of a nice evening the son decided to reveal he had been carrying a gun the whole time.

WOW

WTF? Who does that? That is so crazy/creepy!

I don't mean to poke on either of you here, but when I read Enoch's story, I thought it sounded fairly normal....

.... maybe I'm just weird.

Or maybe just from the American West...

azflyer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:06 am Does anyone here think that the issues that we are all aware of in the LDS church potentially make it a 'target' for a mass shooting? Am I more likely to be the victim of a mass shooting in sacrament meeting, or at the mall?

I think the likelihood of being shot at an LDS sacrament is no higher than it is at a mall right now. I think that likelihood would increase if the church became more liberal, frankly. I could see a crazy orthodox guy shooting up a sacrament meeting because they have "gone soft on the gays," but not the other way around.

I am a gun guy. I was raised around guns, I am a good shot, and I am a level headed person. But I dont carry that often and it is very situation specific. My reason is because if I am with my family, my concern will be for them and getting them to safety, not with charging after a crazy gunman. If I were single I may feel different. If I am in an small enclosed space I will feel different. But generally, I will be running my kids to safety away from the gunfire, not toward it. And in situations like Las Vegas or Gun vs. Pickup truck it is not going to matter.