NOM

That which is unique about mormonism is not good; that which is good about Mormonism is not unique.

Corsair wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:07 pmI could go on, but a more detailed conversation would probably work best over lunch. When are you available?

Korihor wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:57 pmDon't resign until your wife is onboard with the decision. Getting your name off the records isn't going to change much in your day to day life, but has the potential to really disrupt your marriage. She doesn't have to agree with your desire, but she needs to accept it. Talk to her about it.

Don't rush into alcohol. You've spent this much of your whole life without it. You're not missing out on much. When the time right, go for it. Invite your spouse to partake.

GoodBoy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:25 pmThe bottom line for me is baby = the community. bathwater = what they talk about when they get together.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:49 am
* Many of the core values taught

Emower wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:56 pm

slavereeno wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:49 am
* Many of the core values taught

This is the kicker. Many people disagree with the core values taught. Everyone has to figure out what their bathwater looks like.

oliver_denom wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:19 pmThe bigger problem you'll face is internal. It's difficult watching people torture themselves and others. It's difficult to be polite in the face of bigotry and ignorance. For many, this alone becomes intolerable.

foolmeonce wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:35 pmIf I could be so bold, I'd like to share some of my experiences with the baby side of your equation.

The idea of cutting away the BS and saving the rest does have an appeal. The LDS Church and community have many good things going for it. An authoritarian superstition-based church that places an undue emphasis on a narrow version of sexual morality, while letting many ethical considerations slide by the wayside is not one of those keepers.

Corsair wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:07 pmPart of the point of all this is to put the burden of proof back on the church.

foolmeonce wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:35 pm If I could be so bold, I'd like to share some of my experiences with the baby side of your equation. (I didn't read to much of the bathwater side, it gives me the flashback heebie jeebies).

Since my wife, kids, and I are now almost 2 years into being separated from the Mormon Faith, we've had to wrestle through replacing much of the good that you outlined. It was obviously scary for us to walk away from the "good things" but DW and I were more scared of the bad ones so we made the plunge hopping that we'd come out ahead. We have. Here's my take.

* The community

Community is a human thing, not a Mormon thing, and community is what you make of it. While that's a simple and obvious statement, it took us a while to really believe and accept fully. Moving to a completely new region and not getting new friends assigned immediately was challenging and made us start to second guess ourselves. In fact, we felt like true immigrants as we learned how to live in a normal US culture instead of isolating ourselves in the Mormon subculture. But we pushed through and started making our own genuine friends who we share like minded interests with. As time has worn on we've come to learn that genuine friends beat assigned friends any day of the week.

* About 25% of the best of the Hymns

I was pretty surprised to realize how much of our HYMN book was ripped off from the protestants. I'll bet the 25% that you like, are the protestant favorites. Go check out a protestant traditional service and I'll bet you hear some pretty good music that you're looking for. If not, load some music on your cell phone. This was an issue for me initially as well, but as I've gone through my healing process, I've largely taken a break from HYMNS in general, but we all have our own paths.

* Striving for Excellence

DEFINITELY NOT just a Mormon thing. In fact, Mormon's aren't as good at it as they think they are. Imagine how much good they would do if members could independently align their own skills and interests to their service commitments? Imagine being able to sharpen and hone skills across an extended period of time rather than for a year or two until the "calling changes?" For the most part, you can't really achieve excellence in anything meaningful in a short period of time. In the Mormon service context, you end up spending all of your time on the steep end of the learning curve, only to be thrown to the bottom of it on something else just as you're starting to find your way. That's not excellence, that a lesson in endlessly managing through meaningless work and frustration.

* Teachings against Drugs, Alcohol and sex for teens.

Not just a Mormon thing, and Mormon's aren't good at that either. They pick their bad guys (GREEN TEA?? ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME???), then stick to their guns regardless of what the best medical and scientific research says. The "prophesy and commandment" becomes more important than the health of the people which is why you have Mormons eating tons of toxic processed sugar and synthetic diet drinks, but steering clear of healthy natural substances that have been consumed healthily for thousands of years.

* Help moving in/out

In my experience, this is a uniquely Mormon thing that isn't really replicated elsewhere. Sure friends sometimes help each other move, but in general people seem to be fairly self sufficient at it. If this is a big issue for you, then I'd recommend diverting a month or two worth of tithing into a savings fund and breaking it out to hire movers when you need it. Then enjoy your Saturdays taking care of your family instead of helping folks pack and move.

* The youth activities (if you remove the weird brainwashing aspects of them)

There are TONS of youth activities out there all without weird brainwashing. In fact, giving kids the ability to chose activities that align to their own interests makes THEM WANT to go. I have a lot less fighting in my house than I would if I were constantly trying to force my kids to go to another youth activity or ::HISSS:: fireside.

* The ward activities

See comments on community. As an example, this past weekend was our pack's family 2 night Cub Scout campout (yes, we were out enjoying God's creation on a Sunday). It was hands down the best community activity I've ever been to.

* Teachings of Love

Not just a Mormon thing. They really want you to think it is, but love is a human thing. The Church just works hard to make sure you think you need them to help you find and keep love in your life. Not true.

* Teachings of Humility

What they call humility is actually submissiveness and is not the same thing. I'm still learning what true humility is and where it's important, but the Mormon faith does not teach it.

* Family Night

Is much better when you don't have to put a Mormon wrapper on it. Period.

* Family focus

This is a Mormon mirage. I spend far more time with my family now then I did before when I was being torn between family and callings.

* Organized service opportunities

We've had to seek this one out, but we've found some strong groups that really do great meaningful service.

* Teachings of commitment to marriage

Not just a Mormon thing, and it can be a lot better outside of the faith. For instance, now I can tell my daughter to take care of herself first, get an education, figure out what gives her the most meaningful life, then get married and have kids. In so doing, she'll be a far superior mother and wife than if she were to get married while still growing up herself.

* Teachings of respect for others (if this could be made to include all others)

Not really a Mormon thing. In fact, Mormons are really bad at this. They actually teach primarily respect for those that fit the mold, and pity/resentment for the rest. There are so many groups, particularly those that do not succumb to fundamental practices, that teach respect for others so much better than the Mormon's.

* The 10% of the BoM stories that are inspiring if taught as fable instead of history

For me, this is closer to the dirt left on the baby then the baby itself. There's plenty of inspiring fiction out there, find a replacement.

* Teachings of modesty/cleanliness

You don't need the church for this.

* Prayer/Meditation

Not a Mormon thing, but you can replace what you currently have with something more meaningful as you eliminate artificial boundaries.

* Sense of Purpose

Definitely not a Mormon thing, but this is a challenging one to replace. It will take time as paradigms shift.

* Knowing about my ancestors/being connected to my past

If this is important to you, then there are plenty of other ways to get there beyond the church system, and outside of the church you don't have to spend time doing fake ordinances for them that take 5 hours all in per ancestor. Personally, I have found that learning about the human race has been far more interesting and fulfilling when I don't have to square outside knowledge to church teachings (an impossible task).

Stuff I don't Know where to put yet:
* Alcohol (I am glad that I am not an alcoholic like my uncle, but I wish I knew what it was like to have a drink now and then)

If you're an adult, this is a personal decision. Drink responsibly if you want, if you don't, then don't. Out in the grownup world, most people don't care either way.

* Sealings in the temple (this is the one thing I like to do with my wife in the temple)

Yeah, this will be a hard one to replace. But then hey, no garments!

* Bathtisms for the Dead (My kids seem to like doing it - if this were purely symbolic maybe? If i never did one again it would be ok with me.)

Kids like doing this because it's something different and not the same old boring. Get them into something meaningful to them and they won't miss the dip in the oxen bathtub.

* A single calling (If I had a say in what I wanted to do and could choose my availability this could be fun)

See above. Outside the church if you want a calling, then you do it. You don't wait to get called to the one you want and drudge through the ones you hate because that's what you're supposed to do. You simply help where, when, and how you are willing and able. This is way better on the outside.

* Missions (honestly mine was amazing and helped me grow so much as a person, I learned a second language, I gained confidence, learned to live on my own, to respect my parents. I hate sending my kids but love what its done for them when they get back... 2 years is too long and there is the washing of brains part that I dislike...)

Still looking for a good replacement for this. I really like the idea of kids taking time to give back. Service Corps might be a good alternative. Other faiths also have service missions that offer real humanitarian aid as opposed to knocking on doors all day which was the majority of my 2 years.