NOM

Have I been a coward in my faith transition?

I think this question from time to time, and it has been rattling around lately. Bravery is a trait I would like to have. The strength to do the right thing in the face of adversity or judgement. And I'm not sure if I have shown that as I go through my faith transition.

Is it cowardice or bravery that takes me to church each Sunday with my wife and kids?

Is it cowardice or bravery that keeps me from bringing up painful topics with DW?

Is it cowardice or bravery that keeps me from arguing religion with the TBMs in my life?

Is it cowardice or bravery to fight for my marriage to my TBM DW?

I don't know the answers.

It doesn't have to be defined. Eff em' all. To the faithful we're cowards, and to the rabid exmos we're cowards. This is no man's land. I'm just trying to survive without blowing up my life and family for someone else's expectations of what bravery means.

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:07 am It doesn't have to be defined. Eff em' all. To the faithful we're cowards, and to the rabid exmos we're cowards. This is no man's land. I'm just trying to survive without blowing up my life and family for someone else's expectations of what bravery means.

I don't think I've seen this said better. That's exactly how I feel.

100% agree with 5FM!

The church is the coward. Let's see them get up at the pulpit and talk about their problems, show us the financial statements, or admit their continuing institutional dishonesty.

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:07 am It doesn't have to be defined. Eff em' all. To the faithful we're cowards, and to the rabid exmos we're cowards. This is no man's land. I'm just trying to survive without blowing up my life and family for someone else's expectations of what bravery means.

Great point. I guess the real issue is whether I think I am a coward or not, and the answer goes back and forth. My DW's opinion matters to me too. And a more objective view matters too, but I'm too close to find it...

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:52 am The church is the coward. Let's see them get up at the pulpit and talk about their problems, show us the financial statements, or admit their continuing institutional dishonesty.

At this point the LDS church's behavior is the last thing I want to base my behavior on, so I'm not sure what this statement is encouraging? The church's actions are mostly evil in my opinion, with the carefully worded denials to mislead and the social pressure used to force people into their mold. These are the very things I consider cowardly and want to avoid. That's why I feel conflicted pretending that all is well at church and with DW and in family situations. But it is a conflict I must live with to keep my family for now.

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:07 am It doesn't have to be defined. Eff em' all. To the faithful we're cowards, and to the rabid exmos we're cowards. This is no man's land. I'm just trying to survive without blowing up my life and family for someone else's expectations of what bravery means.

Preach it FFM!


Cowardice is standing up in front of millions of followers, and being blatantly dishonest about the truth claims of "the church" while receiving a six figure salary to continue obfuscating the truth. (The six figure salary that is paid by the those same followers I might add.)

Bravery is realizing that your entire life is based on lies, and distancing yourself from the lies while still trying to hold together the life that was built on those lies. It doesn't have to be a shock-and-awe campaign that burns everything to the ground.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:50 am Bravery is realizing that your entire life is based on lies, and distancing yourself from the lies while still trying to hold together the life that was built on those lies. It doesn't have to be a shock-and-awe campaign that burns everything to the ground.

Yup, this^^ I feel like it is brave to be tactfully honest and to consider the feelings of those closest to you. I was full in TBM along with DW. If I am driving down the road at 80 mph and suddenly shift into reverse, something is going to break. My end game is to preserve my family relationships AND live authentically.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:50 am Bravery is realizing that your entire life is based on lies, and distancing yourself from the lies while still trying to hold together the life that was built on those lies. It doesn't have to be a shock-and-awe campaign that burns everything to the ground.

Great comment

Culper Jr. wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:05 pm

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:50 am Bravery is realizing that your entire life is based on lies, and distancing yourself from the lies while still trying to hold together the life that was built on those lies. It doesn't have to be a shock-and-awe campaign that burns everything to the ground.

Yup, this^^ I feel like it is brave to be tactfully honest and to consider the feelings of those closest to you. I was full in TBM along with DW. If I am driving down the road at 80 mph and suddenly shift into reverse, something is going to break. My end game is to preserve my family relationships AND live authentically.

LOL, I'm gripping the wheel with both hands against 2 blown tires and slowly pulling over to keep from flipping. Great analogy.

Linked, I think it means that you value relationships above all. I do the same. I like the baby in the bath water.

These are complicated and personalized decisions. Sadly it isn't clear cut, follow your truth and determine your personal outcome. Religions have used political pressures and family pressure to force compliance.

I spoke to a friend who has left, he says that the middle is not sustainable. I agree, when you don't have family (especially spouse) keeping you in. If extended family is not in the church and both in the couple are on the same path, it is pretty easy to exit stage left.

Solidarity brother!

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:00 pm

Culper Jr. wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:05 pm

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:50 am Bravery is realizing that your entire life is based on lies, and distancing yourself from the lies while still trying to hold together the life that was built on those lies. It doesn't have to be a shock-and-awe campaign that burns everything to the ground.

Yup, this^^ I feel like it is brave to be tactfully honest and to consider the feelings of those closest to you. I was full in TBM along with DW. If I am driving down the road at 80 mph and suddenly shift into reverse, something is going to break. My end game is to preserve my family relationships AND live authentically.

LOL, I'm gripping the wheel with both hands against 2 blown tires and slowly pulling over to keep from flipping. Great analogy.

Compassion.

The Chinese believe courage and compassion are two sides of the same coin. It takes a lot of courage to be compassionate and that's just the first reason why compassion is not the wussy trait we westerners believe it to be.

I also like FiveFingerMnemonic's take on this.

Linked wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:59 amthe right thing

Perhaps it's difficult to determine whether you are doing this in some cases because there isn't an objective "right" thing. What's right can depend on what narrative you happen to be favoring at a given time. The pragmatic thing might sometimes be easier to identify.

Also, I imagine that it's possible for a brave act to ruin relationships and make life more difficult afterward with no real benefit, just as it's possible for a brave act to do a lot of good and improve a situation.

I think if you are motivated by truth and love, even love for yourself, your are making a good choice. I might be wrong, but it seems that way to me.

Wow there have been some excellent comments in this thread. I have struggled with whether I am a good husband or a poor father for pretending all these years and going along with the Church to keep my wife happy. Turns out, because I have been pretending to go along, I have been in a position where I have been able to put my children on a trajectory that will lead them out of the Church. Some of them are in that process already. There were times I thought I had lost them all to the Church, but given time I now see that for the most part I have been able to undo what the Church has done with them.

For anyone starting out in their journey of disaffection from the Church but have family who still believe, this is a battle that will not be won in a day, and where things stand now may not be where things stand in the years to come. You may now curse yourself for the cowardice of not shouting what you truly believe from the rooftops, but you may one day recognize the courage you've had in being undercover in enemy territory for years, eluding identification and capture, and keeping yourself in the front lines where you can influence your children who are also on the front lines. It's not the best approach for everyone, but in my case I think it was.

I have not always been sure that playing along was the right thing, but these days more and more I think it preserved my marriage while still allowing me to influence my children for the better. Not that it hasn't come at the cost of my sanity some days. And years in Church meetings is a pretty hefty price to pay. But it seems to have worked out. But everyone's situation is different.

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:07 am It doesn't have to be defined. Eff em' all. To the faithful we're cowards, and to the rabid exmos we're cowards. This is no man's land. I'm just trying to survive without blowing up my life and family for someone else's expectations of what bravery means.

+ another one for this!

I think many of us empathize with Link and each situation has variations. I'm glad my transition out for me and the fam was more rapid that many here. One of my friends who was a former bish and HC had a rough transition out and regrets some of the ways he handled it because it was like throwing the car into reverse on the freeway a couple of times. He admits he was a real Ahole sometimes with his local leaders, but they also treated him like crap and handled it poorly.

At times I wanted to be like my friend and have the balls to standup and say it loud and proud that it is all BS and standup for my honest integrity and principals. It felt so demeaning and emasculating at times to have to pretend to drink the koolaid, like being in a prison; I just had to tell myself that I was free in my mind. I think it is more brave to taking the things you are truly responsible for, the people you love and put them over your own pride or outward expression of integrity and beliefs in order to preserve there well being. Fortunately for my friend who had to slam his recommend on the table and give his local leaders the proverbial finger, his wife stood by him and supported him, because she knew how diligently he had struggled to come to the conclusion he did about the truth claims.

There's just no easy answer here, so "Eff em' all"!