NOM

I had a heart to heart with my parents this weekend. It started with a smile and ended with a hug, so that was good. We agreed that these sorts of discussions are an important part of building our relationship after my faith change. We will probably never agree about these things, but we can at least understand where each other come from.

There were some interesting moments. My parents have painted a picture of me as too smart for my own good. My mom described how she always knew the church was true and described some special spiritual moments in her life, as early as 4 years old. Then she told me how I was always a thinker and not a feeler like that. I quickly corrected her, telling her I definitely had spiritual moments and feelings, and that it wasn't fair to compare some of the most spiritual moments of her entire childhood to the average moments of mine. Then I told them that I simply rejected the idea that those spiritual experiences meant that the church's narrative is true.

My parents are missionaries and my dad described a recent zone conference where they were discussing Moroni's Promise and how to handle people who say they tried it but it didn't work. He asked why the missionaries didn't have the guts to point out the obvious based on the formula: Read + Pray + Real Intent = Confirmation of Truth of BoM. The obvious thing being that if they read, and they prayed, but didn't get a confirmation then they clearly didn't have real intent. It's a simple formula. He took a while to get to his point and I was seething by the end. I raised my voice and said, "It is a good thing people don't "have the guts" to blame the victim here!" My mom calmed us both down and my dad finished his point and we had a civil discussion about it. To be fair to him, he is a convert who owes his conversion to a special, and fast, experience with the Book of Mormon. So he has a hard time understanding why other people struggle with it.

It is interesting how predictable the TBM arguments are, and how easily they place the apostates in their lives into one of a small number of categories. But, they still seem to genuinely love me, which is more than I could ask for.

I think the church works for some people. I think that either God, or their subcouscience tells them "this is good" and you should join/stay. But the problem you have is in getting your dad to see that the church fails to work for some people, so their God/subcouscience will tell them something different. Perhaps if you approach it from a pragmatic view, that the church does not work for you because [fill in your reasons].

For me, the church does not work because the focus on doing more and more and still not being good enough, triggers all kinds of feelings from my perfectionist mother for whom 99% on a test was never good enough because we missed one. She would always focus on the failing, no matter how tiny. The church also does this. Then there is the sexism. The Mormon church does not work for me because I need to be of worth to God, and in Mormonism, women are baby incubators. A machine could do as good of a job. Women are not really fully human and that just doesn't work for me. There is also the need for a logically consistent doctrine and with the problems in church history, and problems with bigotry, and problems with just doctrine that leaves you going, but what about....

alas wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:31 am I think the church works for some people. I think that either God, or their subcouscience tells them "this is good" and you should join/stay. But the problem you have is in getting your dad to see that the church fails to work for some people, so their God/subcouscience will tell them something different. Perhaps if you approach it from a pragmatic view, that the church does not work for you because [fill in your reasons].

For me, the church does not work because the focus on doing more and more and still not being good enough, triggers all kinds of feelings from my perfectionist mother for whom 99% on a test was never good enough because we missed one. She would always focus on the failing, no matter how tiny. The church also does this. Then there is the sexism. The Mormon church does not work for me because I need to be of worth to God, and in Mormonism, women are baby incubators. A machine could do as good of a job. Women are not really fully human and that just doesn't work for me. There is also the need for a logically consistent doctrine and with the problems in church history, and problems with bigotry, and problems with just doctrine that leaves you going, but what about....

Good points Alas. My reasons for disaffection are more ideological than pragmatic. If the ideology were sound then I could make the pragmatic issues work through mental gymnastics(I did for many years...). But perhaps focusing on the pragmatic I can connect better with them, I will give it a try. I certainly have pragmatic issues with the church; once the ideological bubble burst many warts of the church became obvious.

Sounds like a difficult discussion- but you seem to have handled it well. It’s difficult when you are or feel outnumbered.

We can relate with their perspectives, because we’ve been there, but they can’t relate with ours yet. Puts the burden and patience of relating on us.

All this sucks. Families judging each the and emotionally distancing based on unknowable stuff. It breaks my heart.

I had a great heart to heart with my DW and mom this weekend. It was actually really good as all of us revealed more doubt to each other than we ever have. At the same time, mom is firm in her testimony despite hating polygamy and other messy stuff.

DW is listending to Year of P and it is boiling her over. What a mess that whole thing was. For me it was all about sex and power. She is still truing to find how God restored his church despite JS and his mistakes.

Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.

Wise words, many applications.

Sorry for your experience, in many ways I can relate.

Linked wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:05 am I had a heart to heart with my parents this weekend. It started with a smile and ended with a hug, so that was good. We agreed that these sorts of discussions are an important part of building our relationship after my faith change.

alas wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:31 am I think the church works for some people. I think that either God, or their subcouscience tells them "this is good" and you should join/stay. But the problem you have is in getting your dad to see that the church fails to work for some people, so their God/subcouscience will tell them something different. Perhaps if you approach it from a pragmatic view, that the church does not work for you because [fill in your reasons].

This conversation has recently become very poignant for me. My dear, faithful mother passed away in April and the church has become increasingly important for my father. He is a temple recorder and it's the highlight of his week to serve on the weekends. It provides a really good social network and keeps him moving around and interacting with people. Part of his duties include some scheduling and fixing problems with records for patrons coming to the temple. He feels helpful and necessary. It would not surprise me if he stuck around for another 20 years. I seriously plan to get a self-driving car for him eventually so he can continue.

The church works for him in a fundamental way. It would arguably be cruel to take that away from him and I keep up the facade for that reason among others. I don't blame the many people that leave the church, but I pragmatically feel drawn to keep my own temple recommend current just for the comfort of some of my dearest family members.

All the world’s a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,