NOM

We've discussed this many times in the past, but thought I would ask around again the perspective of NOMs. What is killing the church?
I look back at my youth years of the 70s and 80s with fondness. I remember a church that was active, fun, and social minded. We had roadshows, social events, bazaars to raise money for budget, scouting trips, fun youth activities. I do not recall one single church lesson from my youth. There was not an emphasis on porn, gays, porn, porn, being perfect, or paying tithing even if you were one meal away from death. We didn't even have the 3-hour block for part of my youth years.
What has changed? Church now is so boring. I am so tired of leaders preaching what I have to do to go to heaven. I am so tired of this emphasis on porn. I just cannot stomach the lessons I have heard countless times. There is no time for socialization with the 3-hour block. All I want to do at the end of church is leave as fast as I can. I'm exhausted from church. I feel nothing spiritual, only tiredness and repetitive gibberish. No wonder my kids hate to go. I have lived in my ward for 12 years or so. I hardly know anyone really. I know many of the names, but have no desire to meet anyone because church just drains me. I sat in church today thinking how i get nothing spiritual or fulfilling, and why do i even go?
What are your thoughts?

I see the change exactly as you describe. In 1990 (I think) was when everything in the church was fully correlated. Instead of independent local budgets, everything started to come from tithing. At first, being a small ward way outside of the Moridor, this seemed like a blessing with not having to scrounge to pay the light bill each month. But it also took away any and all independence that individual wards had. Everything had to be in lock step with what SLC wanted. Leaders seemed to be more concerned with advancement than ministering to their congregation. Instead of an older, wiser, deeply spiritual bishop the church preferred lawyer and businessman types that could grow the church and increase donations. This sucked all fun and individuality out of the church. Fun activities were seen as an unneeded expense instead of a necessary part of church that kept people engaged and interested. The needs of the rank and file are no longer a concern, only focusing on reactivating and converts; things that increase numbers.

Anyway, just my 2 cents!

Society is becoming more enlightened. Writing off a Bishop's poor handling of an abuse situation is giving abuse tacit approval to continue. Telling an abuse victim to have faith is keeping the victim in an abusive situation and allowing it to continue.

People are beginning, only beginning mind you, to understand that's not okay.

The church operates like a business, so lets look at it from that angle.

It is very interesting if you start applying common business tactics to them and you can see how things are going poorly for them.

1. "Innovate or die". For a church based on modern revelation, they have surprisingly little of it over the last century and a half. Even if you go with the idea that some people want the same old thing, Even McDonald's is struggling. People just are not as interested in the same old thing. they are bring out new products to try to cater to the changing demand for higher quality, more innovative food. How many old products have rested on what they always did and have slowly faded into obscurity?

2. Own your mistakes, be at least somewhat public about it. Customers hate when a company denies that a problem exists. Look at Toyota and the sudden acceleration problem a few years ago. They tried the 'we neither seek or give apologies' thing and it cost them dearly. Between lost sales, warranty repairs, lawsuits, and government involvement, it cost the huge amounts of money and took a while to rebuild their reputation. The church has had several big media blunders lately and by failing to address them, they only bring more bad PR on themselves.

3. Customize for local needs. Even with large companies that are known from a brand, they will still allow various markets to be customized to what they want. With cars, they will vary options in a region to match their customers. Finding a 2wd Ford Explorer in Florida is super easy whereas finding one in New England is very difficult. McDonald's even though they are known fir selling the same Big Mac across the globe, they will still offer various things customized in various regions. Thinks like the Lobster burger they sell in Japan. It is very possible to keep the core of the brand but allow freedom to meet local needs and tastes. The church won't do that so it limits their market outside Utah.

4. Get rid of ineffective leadership. Many companies struggle with this, but they commonly find themselves at a point of do or die. When leadership is obviously a detriment to the company and shareholders, they replaced or even forced out or the company dies. The church is specifically set up to keep this from happening. Upper leadership is kept in long past their usefulness to the point where it drags them down. It also keeps out new blood and ideas. See point #1.

5. Embrace Diversity. Diversity brings more market share. The church has long fought diversity in many forms.

This is just a short list. Someone could write a doctoral dissertation of the church's business short comings.

Church was boring in the 70s and 80s too. I was severely bored. Correlation was in full swing and the lessons cycled just like they do now.

I remember porn and masturbation lessons starting when I was 12 in the 70s continuing all the way through. The 70s was the era of the little factory speech and pamphlet. They even wanted families to do a FHE based on the pamphlet. I certainly remember that one.

Centralizing the ward budgets started in the early eighties was a hard blow to the church community. But the community was already foundering on lack of inclusivity and cliques. Scouts was the only church activity I liked because we actually did things. Once that was over it was 5 years of mission prep or basketball which I don't enjoy either.

What's killing church is more church.

dogbite wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:59 am
What's killing church is more church.

Thumbs up!

Emower wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:15 am

dogbite wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:59 am
What's killing church is more church.

Thumbs up!

Yup! More cow bell....

I over heard a conversation yesterday from a lady complaining about inititories in the temple. Not naked poncho touching complaints but rather complaining that she could only go and do 3 names. She complained because she has 10 family names that she was hoping to get done in one visit but now has to go multiple times. She said she probably will get around to it in the next few weeks. Sigh...

More church is definitely killing the church.

I live vicariously through posts like these, I don't have first-hand experience attending an LDS service for over 7 months now.

We went to our ward Trunk-or-Treat party on Saturday. We had a good time and honestly, they put on a decent event. The only chruchy thing is they get it started with an opening prayer/blessing on the food. A lot of good fun, carnival style activities, a few non-mormons, a few inactive's and some TBMs. There were even a few porn shoulders and short skirt costumes.

I just kinda observed the whole ordeal. The TBM's run the show. In my opinion, its not a "Community Event", is an assignment for the TBM's to entertain the community. The church does a poor job in asking for everyone attending to help out. Only TBM's are assigned to bring food, only TBM's do set up and take down and only TBM provide carnival style games and activities. It's maintaining stereotypes that inactive's and non-members are a bunch of moochers and the TBM's much do all the heavy lifting. Instead of being a community party, its just another responsibility for TBM's.

WRONG - if the TBM's would actually have a sign-up sheet that existed outside of Relief Society, all the inactives and visitors would be more than happy to help. What is killing the church is it's antiquated, insular, self-serving communications and networking. The same issue as "sacred not secret". You can't be in the circle of trust with things such as planning a Halloween party unless you're a card-carrying member.

***WARNING - LONG***

While the numbers on the roles keep increasing due to convert baptisms and children of record, these numbers are not translating well into active members as evidenced by the number of actual congregations. There can be little doubt that in major areas of the world, the church is, in fact, in decline. I offer for evidence the following:

EUROPE
In France in 2005 there were 126 units of the church, today there are 108 a 15% decline in the last 11 years
In the UK in 2005 there were 366 units of the church, today there are 333 a 10% decline in the last 11 years
In Germany in 2005 there were 177 units of the church, today there are 166 a 7% decline in the last 11 years
In Russia in 2008 there were 129 units of the church, today there are 103 a 21% decline in the last 8 years

SOUTH AMERICA
In Argentina in 2007 there were 867 units of the church, today there are 769 a 12% decline in the last 9 years
In Peru in 2011 there were 788 units of the church, today there are 749 a 5% decline in just 6 years
In Paraguay in 2010 there were 149 units of the church, today there are 137 a 9% decline in 7 years
In Columbia in 2011 there were 274 units of the church, today there are 256 a 7% decline in 6 years

ASIA
In Japan in 2005 there were 308 units of the church, today there are 264 a 14% decline in 11 years
In Korea in 2005 there were 150 units of the church, today there are 120 a 20% decline in 11 years
In Singapore the number of units have remained steady at 11, even though the number of members have declined by 7 in the last 3 years

Now could you argue that the numbers above have been "cherry picked"? Sure. There are countries in Europe, South America, and Asia where you could point to growth. But even there the real numbers are problematic. For example:

In Canada the church has added 13 units of the church since 2007, and average of 1.3/year. At the same time the church claims to have added 17,078 members or approximately 1,707 members/year. That would equate to Wards with approximately 1313 members/ward, and we all know that isn't true.

A similar situation occurs in Mexico where the church has added 54 units of the church since 2007, and average of 54/year. At the same time the church claims to have added 295,118 members or approximately 29,511 members/year. That would equate to Wards with a truly staggering 5465 members/ward! Not even remotely likely.

And while the US has seen some unit growth, it isn't really happening much outside of Utah:
Michigan has lost 14 units since 2007
Minnesota has lost 5 since 2010
Louisiana has gained 5 wards since 2007, but lost a stake - what?!?
Even Idaho, which has gained 50 units since 2010 claims to have gained 20,000 members in that time or 400/ward, which while possible still would indicate significant loss.

(All numbers above from Cumorah.com)

I think the above does indicate that intact, the church has a very significant problem. As stated earlier, while the numbers on the roles keep increasing due to convert baptisms and children of record, these numbers are not translating well into active members as evidenced by the number of actual congregations.

This means that there are significant problems in actually retaining converts of any sort. Why?
I believe that there are multiple reasons for this, and while the following is not an all inclusive list, I think that it is representative of some of the major issues:

1. The church does not meet the needs of the members. In fact, the entire dialogue around the church centers on what the members could/should do for "building the kingdom." The members are there to pay tithing, do genealogical and temple work, home and visiting teach, hold callings, teach lessons, clean the building, wear helping hands t-shirts, etc. There is little conversation about what the church is going to do for the members.

The reason that nearly everyone has a smart phone in their pocket is because it works. It does exactly what it was advertised to do. It connects to the internet, allows me to communicate with others, and in general meets my needs. Hence, the vast majority view a smart phone as an investment. While it may cost some money, time, and effort, the payoff (what I receive from it) is greater than the sum of what I have to put into it. For many a college education is the same way. I invest my time, money, and energy in earning a degree that pays off in recognition, job advancement etc. The church however doesn't. There are a myriad of promises about spiritual edification, learning, being a better person. You even hear individuals talk about how wonderful it all is in testimony meeting, but there cold, hard fact is that it isn't. Offer to take the typical member out to lunch or to the temple and which do you think they would pick? Offer to take them to a movie at the local Cinemark or the one at the international house of handshakes and which do you think they would select? Why? Because simply put, the church doesn't deliver what it promises when it comes to meeting the needs of the members. Until the leadership decides to turn that paradigm around, they are going to have serious issues. It is why, you may get a convert by telling them how wonderful it all is, but once they see the reality, they are out the door.

2. Honesty. The church isn't honest. Not even close. Not even when they try to be. The church released the essays precisely because they realized that members were beginning to explore aspects of church history that were not part of the correlated curriculum and that many of the actual/honest facts that were out there were contradictory to the established correlated curriculum. If they released the gospel topics essays individuals would be able to find the real data, from the church, and the church could then point to the essays as evidence that they weren't hiding anything. But even then, they couldn't do so honestly or with full disclosure. It is why we get things like this: "The youngest was Helen Mar Kimball, daughter of Joseph’s close friends Heber C. and Vilate Murray Kimball, who was sealed to Joseph several months before her 15th birthday." (https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marri ... o?lang=eng) The church simply can't find it in themselves to say she was 14 years old. While not a bit deal really, it is again indicative of the way in which the church handles honesty. They expect it from their members, but aren't willing to follow it themselves. (See point 1 above) Try going to tithing settlement and using the same statement about your finances with the bishop that the church uses with the membership in general conference and see how quickly you get issued a temple recommend - spoiler alert - you don't. But why not?

3. The Spirit of Prophecy that only works when looking in the mirror. On the surface the church has a wonderful claim that not many other churches make (at least not so boldly). The church claims that the heavens are again open, that God again communicates directly with man through a living prophet on the earth today. Furthermore, the church claims that said prophet will never lead the church astray, that in fact he is incapable of doing so, else he would be removed out of his place by the very God that gives him utterance. Yet, when we example that we see the following:
First Presidency Statement 1949: "The attitude of the Church with reference to Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time."
Church Statement in 2017: "White supremacist attitudes are morally wrong and sinful, and we condemn them. Church members who promote or pursue a ‘white culture’ or white supremacy agenda are not in harmony with the teachings of the Church.”

Now imagine if you will, what would have happened if the first presidency would have made the 2nd statement in 1949. In hindsight, they would have looked brilliant, enlightened, inspired, perhaps dare I say it, like a prophet. Instead, they look like old men, desperately clinging to a failed ideology and blaming it on God. Will the same thing play out with women rights, gay rights, transgender individuals etc.? To believe that the church leadership has the spirit of prophecy is to believe that God is always 50 years late to the party. At the risk of being just a bit snarky, maybe it simply takes that long for the messages to get back and forth to Kolob.

4. Mountains out of Molehills, while ignoring the real mountains. The church and church leadership is consistently asking the members to focus on the boogeyman around the corner. There is the concern about the Gays, or Porn, or Modesty. Heaven forbid someone takes a drink of Coffee. Alcohol is the devil in liquid form. We should be panicked because they want to allow girls in the Boy Scouts, or that a baker might have to bake a cake for two ladies that love each other. Most of humanity realizes that there are probably bigger fish to fry, and yet somehow the leaders and the church fails to see it.

People are being killed in Syria.
Children are starving in Yemen
1 in 5 adults has HIV/AIDS in Botswana
We have increased co2 concentrations from 280 to 400 ppm in the last century
Gun Violence kills more than 33,000 in the US each year
The rates of obesity and diabetes are increasing significantly in the US

When did you hear the brethren give serious voice to any of these issues? When did they propose any solutions? When have they put the church's vast resources behind solving any of these problems? The short answer - they haven't. Anyone paying even a bit of attention can see this.

At the same time, the church and its leaderships generally fails to acknowledge all that is good in the world. They see the world as a dangerous and scary place. A place we should be "in but not of". Yet, look at all the progress we have made in the world. There are greater opportunities, better health care, less war, less disease and hunger, less poverty, more education and knowledge that at any time in the worlds history. Yet we can't focus on the beautiful view from the top of the mountain. We have to see the potential molehill. Why? Because it keeps the fearful sheep very close to the self-proscribed shepherd. We even use that very terminology at church don't we. The sheep believe that the shepherd cares for them because he loves them. The reality is that he keeps them close so that he can fleece them, and eventually devour them.

As information and knowledge become readily more available, more individual are able to see exactly that.

-Lost

Korihor wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:40 am I live vicariously through posts like these, I don't have first-hand experience attending an LDS service for over 7 months now.

We went to our ward Trunk-or-Treat party on Saturday. We had a good time and honestly, they put on a decent event. The only chruchy thing is they get it started with an opening prayer/blessing on the food. A lot of good fun, carnival style activities, a few non-mormons, a few inactive's and some TBMs. There were even a few porn shoulders and short skirt costumes.

I just kinda observed the whole ordeal. The TBM's run the show. In my opinion, its not a "Community Event", is an assignment for the TBM's to entertain the community. The church does a poor job in asking for everyone attending to help out. Only TBM's are assigned to bring food, only TBM's do set up and take down and only TBM provide carnival style games and activities. It's maintaining stereotypes that inactive's and non-members are a bunch of moochers and the TBM's much do all the heavy lifting. Instead of being a community party, its just another responsibility for TBM's.

WRONG - if the TBM's would actually have a sign-up sheet that existed outside of Relief Society, all the inactives and visitors would be more than happy to help. What is killing the church is it's antiquated, insular, self-serving communications and networking. The same issue as "sacred not secret". You can't be in the circle of trust with things such as planning a Halloween party unless you're a card-carrying member.

Okay, now. You make a good point, here. I recently complained because my church wanted to give me service and I didn't want to be lassoed into an obligation they controlled. Part of the reason I'm contemplating paying for a bump in the termostat setting is to level the goodwill playing field and be more open and gracious to this service, because I'm participating in more ways than just being the project/problem to be solved. I would love to be of service in my ward/neighborhood. However, my funds and time are tight and I am inactive (moderately). If the church let go of this insularity I would be willing to sign a sign up sheet for service or a pot luck. I may not do it every time, but I would sign one as my situation allowed.

.

Heart cancer caused by politics.

I think my building is being kept colder, this year, due to budget cuts. As a solo mom, I really can't afford to get sick. As I contemplate church and how to dress and shivering for 1 - 3 hours, I just might decide to let discretion be the better part of valor and choose to stay warm, at home, rather than go to a building where at least a few people will be carrying whatever is going around and my body is too busy fighting to stay warm to fight off whatever infection is in the air.

I can just hear the criticisms of the hard core and how our pioneer ancestors suffered and so can we. Fine. Be my guest. I'm going to stay home and warm with a nice cup of tea.

6) You don't need to walk in faith if you have a sure knowledge. The 3 hour block is all about a facade of sure knowledge that keeps people from exploring their faith. The 3 hour block is a walled garden where there are right and wrong answers, which chokes out continued revelation. Attend church to hear the same thing for the 8th time... this month. Why? The experience is so sterile.

I very much feel this way, as well. I would rather just read, listen to or watch the talks on my own time, I don't feel the need to experience them again in SM, RS/PH, VT/HT.

There have been some excellent thorough and detailed posts on this thread. I hope I can complement what has already been said.

A business based on monopoly is colliding with the new consumerism, and not responding well.

You have to go back to the notion that the church claims sole possession of God's authority to conduct the true and living church of Jesus Christ, and to administer the ordinances of salvation that will keep you and your loved ones sealed throughout all eternity. That is a monopoly claim, and if some entity holds a monopoly on something you need, or believe that you need, you will pay almost any price for that something. Only if the entity really has a product that you truly need, and has a monopoly on that product, can they extract profit over and above the fair market cost of the product in a competitive marketplace.

The problem is that consumer behavior has gone through a sea change. When someone with access to the internet goes to make a major financial purchase or commitment, the first thing they do is seek information on the internet. When I want to buy a product, whether in cyberspace or at the local brick and mortar, the first thing I am going to do is seek out reviews of that product. And even if the product has 4.9 star reviews overall I am going to deliberately seek out the one, two, and three star reviews that are dragging the average down to see if those issues are a concern to me. Looking at the reviews for the Book of Mormon on Amazon is a great example. Despite the best efforts of social media missionaries that get the book up to a 4 star overall review, there are still 51 pages of one star reviews and they hit the multitude of issues with which we are so familiar. In a very short span of time one can become aware of so many things that cloud the pretty picture the missionaries are trying to deliver about Another Testament of JC.

That is just one example. There are so many more. Such as forums where the disaffected give a more realistic view of what Mormonism is like. Or discovering that there is nothing uniquely Mormon about the witness of spirit which is ultimately the only proof supporting the claims on which the LDS monopoly is based.

It is just too darn hard to get people to swallow the things they will need to fully ingest if they are going to be the tithe-paying, time-sacrificing individuals on which the LDS business model depends. And while doubling down on unsupportable claims may only be delaying the inevitable, relinquishing those claims may only be a path to institutional collapse. The church is between a rock and hard place.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:31 am

Emower wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:15 am

dogbite wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:59 am
What's killing church is more church.

Thumbs up!

Yup! More cow bell....

I over heard a conversation yesterday from a lady complaining about inititories in the temple. Not naked poncho touching complaints but rather complaining that she could only go and do 3 names. She complained because she has 10 family names that she was hoping to get done in one visit but now has to go multiple times. She said she probably will get around to it in the next few weeks. Sigh...

More church is definitely killing the church.

I've got a fever... and the only cure... is more cow bell!!

What's killing the Church? That's simple - The Church isn't what it claims to be; in any shape, way or form.

The answer is CBA

Which could stand for Can't Be Arsed or Cost Benefit Analysis - either work.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:31 amNot naked poncho touching complaints...

Now could you argue that the numbers above have been "cherry picked"? Sure.

My son just got back from a mish in Chile the wards and branches are experiencing major atrophy, attendance is about a third of what it was in the glory days, almost everywhere and most pronounced in larger cities and towns, but they don't remove their names from the roles they just get "lost"

Give It Time wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:41 pm I think my building is being kept colder, this year, due to budget cuts. As a solo mom, I really can't afford to get sick. As I contemplate church and how to dress and shivering for 1 - 3 hours, I just might decide to let discretion be the better part of valor and choose to stay warm, at home, rather than go to a building where at least a few people will be carrying whatever is going around and my body is too busy fighting to stay warm to fight off whatever infection is in the air.

I can just hear the criticisms of the hard core and how our pioneer ancestors suffered and so can we. Fine. Be my guest. I'm going to stay home and warm with a nice cup of tea.

6) You don't need to walk in faith if you have a sure knowledge. The 3 hour block is all about a facade of sure knowledge that keeps people from exploring their faith. The 3 hour block is a walled garden where there are right and wrong answers, which chokes out continued revelation. Attend church to hear the same thing for the 8th time... this month. Why? The experience is so sterile.

I very much feel this way, as well. I would rather just read, listen to or watch the talks on my own time, I don't feel the need to experience them again in SM, RS/PH, VT/HT.

I think you if you went with warm clothes and a scarf and a cup of Earl Grey that might send a message

2bizE wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:57 pm

Give It Time wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:41 pm I think my building is being kept colder, this year, due to budget cuts. As a solo mom, I really can't afford to get sick. As I contemplate church and how to dress and shivering for 1 - 3 hours, I just might decide to let discretion be the better part of valor and choose to stay warm, at home, rather than go to a building where at least a few people will be carrying whatever is going around and my body is too busy fighting to stay warm to fight off whatever infection is in the air.

I can just hear the criticisms of the hard core and how our pioneer ancestors suffered and so can we. Fine. Be my guest. I'm going to stay home and warm with a nice cup of tea.

6) You don't need to walk in faith if you have a sure knowledge. The 3 hour block is all about a facade of sure knowledge that keeps people from exploring their faith. The 3 hour block is a walled garden where there are right and wrong answers, which chokes out continued revelation. Attend church to hear the same thing for the 8th time... this month. Why? The experience is so sterile.

I very much feel this way, as well. I would rather just read, listen to or watch the talks on my own time, I don't feel the need to experience them again in SM, RS/PH, VT/HT.

I think you if you went with warm clothes and a scarf and a cup of Earl Grey that might send a message

I agree and I will be sure to take some TSM approved shortbread cookies.