NOM

So last Wednesday I was invited to what LDS would call a fireside.
At my new Church, it´s a Dutch church affiliated with the Foursquare Church.
It´s pentecostal more or less, and even there there are differences.
Seems the unit I attend is the most liberal of the 42 Dutch units, and the Dutch squadron is considered liberal by Foursquare USA.
So I found my spot so to say....

Antway, there was a fireside, about John 15, about the pruning of the Vine, a great talk.
About how we are being pruned by the Lord, removing dead wood, wounded parts etc. With the admonition that He must do the work.
Not other people, please call in the expert, i.e. Christ. Not a Pastor, not another member.
They can´t really help, because they don´t know, and have their own problems and limitations.
Quite refreshing from an LDS point of view, where leaders are considered to be virtually infallible.
Remember the 14 Fundamentals-talk???

Afterwards I had a talk with the speaker, called Dan Sneed
Well, he´s rather WYSIWYG. With old jeans, an old sweater, he looked like an old surfer-dude from SoCal.
Quite different from a Standard Issue GA who arrivés in the back of a limo, waering a 2000 Dollar suit, and a 20000 dollar Gold F-ing Watch.

And he had quite the story to tell after I had told him my story and background.

Some months ago he flew into SLC, and sat on the plane next to a man who had his set of Scriptures open.
So they started to talk, and Dan told me it was a 70, the guy was in charge of the Marketing Department.
And he told him: I admire the Mormons for their familyvalues, their really nice mediapresence and how they have their act together.

The 70 was rather open and said: It´s all marketing sir, just marketing. Our problems are probably much bigger than yours, we are losing virtually all our youth nowadays. Everyone thinks the LDS Church is doing great, reality is much, much different. Just image, and not much more.

So, it´s just one datapoint, but one I could not withold from you nice people.

https://www.dansneed.com/

Wow, that's a bold statement from a 70, in great contrast with what the typical member thinks is going on.

I wish the church would be more transparent with their data to the members instead of painting a false picture.

Maybe that was Grant Palmer's 70
What was that from Uctdorf about "Potemkin Villages?"

I believe most folks who are out, or on their way out would agree with the 70.

The first-hand evidence I have in my little neighborhood in the middle of the MorCor is honestly shocking to me. Families that I never would have thought would leave, have left.


If only I could see the same happen in my family. Sigh...

Interesting ! Thank you for this message. By the way, I read about the financial scandal -- wow, that was amazing. You were one of the first people in the Netherlands to be aware of that issue with the finances. -- Wndr.

Drat!

Where's a hidden camera and microphone when you need one?

My first response to this is unfortunately that it sounds a bit like Gene R. Cook / Mick Jagger story -- maybe something happened, maybe somebody talked to somebody, but something feels like it is lost in the translation. Or somebody was hearing what they wanted to hear. I'm certainly not suggesting Meilingkie made it up or anything. Something just feels a little off about it, kind of like it was run through an automated translator a couple of times. I'd love to know what really happened in that conversation, what was said and meant. Cameras are everywhere these days, too bad one didn't catch this.

I am not questioning Meilingkie's recital of the event either, I am sure he is not making that up. But I do find it hard to believe that a 70 would be so bold and "unmissionary-like" to a stranger on a plane.

This is the first I've seen of Meilingkie in a while. It's good to hear from you again. I've missed you.

Emower wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:26 pm I am not questioning Meilingkie's recital of the event either, I am sure he is not making that up. But I do find it hard to believe that a 70 would be so bold and "unmissionary-like" to a stranger on a plane.

Yeah, but I could see how some GAs might be tempted to "talk shop" with a pastor from another faith. I'm going to "choose" to have faith that it's true.

Like everyone else, I desperately want this story to be true. I have reservations that a 70 would say it in those words exactly, but I could readily imagine some conversation with a sympathizing GA stating the church is really struggling to keep the youth.

Culper Jr. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:06 pm

Emower wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:26 pm I am not questioning Meilingkie's recital of the event either, I am sure he is not making that up. But I do find it hard to believe that a 70 would be so bold and "unmissionary-like" to a stranger on a plane.

Yeah, but I could see how some GAs might be tempted to "talk shop" with a pastor from another faith. I'm going to "choose" to have faith that it's true.

You know how work can be a grind, sometimes, and sometimes the truth just slips out from under the rug?

That

https://wheatandtares.org/2017/03/28/mo ... sa-trends/

Confirms 72% are gone by age 20. That's in line with what is claimed for the 70s statement.

dogbite wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:19 pm https://wheatandtares.org/2017/03/28/mo ... sa-trends/

Confirms 72% are gone by age 20. That's in line with what is claimed for the 70s statement.

Where are they going? That’s my concern. I hope they can find their way between extremes of religious and leftist dogma.

So good to hear from you Mel.
I have a question for you. As you have transitioned to this new church, how have you mentally managed the doctrine you have learned from the LDS church with what is being taught at your new church?
There are so many dogmas from LDS perspective that I would sometimes have a hard time knowing what is LDS (false) and what is generally accepted by the other churches.

On dogma
The only dogma this particular Church unit has is this:
There is no “you must”.
The pastor is adamant about that

I can Imagine a GA might need to vent.
They can’t vent “down”, they can’t vent “up”
They can vent with equals in the Same business.
But again, I do concur about it being hearsay.

Let's set aside whether every detail of the story is correct - the point of the story if correct. Even if they don't say it out loud, even if they don't admit it to themselves, I sense they know they are losing, I sense they know something is very wrong, and they know on some level the tools they have to address it aren't working. To me, Elder Oaks' General Conference attack on gays was the desperate whining of someone who feels the ground slipping out from under him and is frantically trying to reassert his authority on a topic fewer and fewer members are agreeing with him on.

They know something is wrong, but they won't allow themselves to see the obvious.

Newme wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:55 pm

dogbite wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:19 pm https://wheatandtares.org/2017/03/28/mo ... sa-trends/

Confirms 72% are gone by age 20. That's in line with what is claimed for the 70s statement.

Where are they going? That’s my concern. I hope they can find their way between extremes of religious and leftist dogma.

What about right-wing dogma? Is that a concern?

This sounds right, even if it was not completely accurate. I'm going to doubt my doubts about this, the church knows it is losing the youth in greater numbers than ever before.

My family is a case study, three YSA, two left the church by age 18 (technically inactive but they will never be back). The oldest of the three is still in the church but rarely attends due to personal reasons, but I think still believes at some level, although she also accepts evolution, science, etc. So we'll see.

I have three older children, and the statistic is reversed, the way it 'used' to be, one out and two still very active in the church.

Something has happened in the last 5 years or so, and it's changed the game for the church, probably for religion in general in the West.