Happy Halloween! My kids are obsessed with The Nightmare Before Christmas this year. We've watched it a half dozen times in the last week. This really resonated with me and my transition for the first time. Spoiler alert, I'm going to tell the story from the movie.
Jack, the pumpkin king is disgruntled with Halloween Town, feeling unfulfilled by Halloween and just scaring people. He wanders all night and discovers Christmas Town and is delighted by the joy of Christmas and wants to share it with the people of Halloween Town. When he returns they have a town meeting and he presents all the things he found in Christmas Town; presents, Christmas Trees, stockings filled with candy and toys, and the joy of the season. The people don't get it. They can only see things from a Halloween perspective.
Although he likes it, Jack also doesn't really get it. He spends some time trying to figure it out, there's a scene with a bunch of equations on a chalk board where he is trying to derive the formula's of Christmas. He decides he is going to give Santa this Christmas off and assigns the people of Halloween Town tasks to prepare for Jack to play Santa for Christmas. They do what they know, and make scary things. Christmas comes and Jack makes a disaster of it, eventually getting shot down. He decides to leave Christmas to Santa and rediscovers his joy for Halloween.
All my serious religious discussions with TBMs or even NOMs in real life end up with them looking at me like I am crazy. They just don't get where I am coming from. They can't see it. Even though I have a new perspective, I don't really get it either. I don't think alcohol is inherently bad, but I don't know if it is something I want in my life. I am not as comfortable with any replacements for church that I have considered. I feel like I have spent countless hours at the chalk board trying to find new formulae for things I don't trust my old perspective on. NOM has been invaluable in this regard. Revisiting my views has led to some understanding of new concepts like abuse, consent, rape culture, whether or not democrats are evil, and many others.
But I worry that if I try to incorporate anything it will be disastrous. That I will screw it up and make things worse than just sticking to what I know. My biggest obstacle to change is not featured in the film, and that is a DW who disagrees with changing. And I don't see me rediscovering my joy for TBM life.
Jack, the Pumpkin King
Jack, the Pumpkin King
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut
Re: Jack, the Pumpkin King
What an interesting analogy! I fantasize about the things I will replace the church with in my life. But I have not considered that it might take a bit of adjusting and may not all "fit". I am like you, not that interested in alcohol or coffee or R rated movies. But I have loved taking off the g's and giving up the guilt and shame. Maybe it just takes time....the first Christmas may not feel right but over time you'll find the right elements?
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Re: Jack, the Pumpkin King
Oh boy does this resonate with me.
Re: Jack, the Pumpkin King
I was thinking of Halloween earlier tonight.
Was remembering back to a Church dance in which the Dance Authorities (they do use that title, right?) threw such a fit because the lady with the best costume at the dance wore a mask. They made her remove it which spoiled the costume. Why? Because they said Church officials were against it. Bandits and Mexican wrestlers wore masks and so it displeased those Church officials enough that they condemned it. Perhaps it was revealed to them that bandits and Mexican wrestlers were less than valorous in the pre-existence.
Anyway, all it would take is for those same Authorities to express their displeasure with Halloween costumes and it would become part of Church doctrine to condemn any LDS participation in this event. Members would become less than worthy if they admitted to participating in any Halloween activities. No one could pass the Sacrament if they wore an orange tie. Pumpkins would become verboten in the Word of Wisdom. Children whose parents participated in Halloween would be denied membership until they turned 18, had the written permission of the First Presidency, and renounced their parents as witches and warlocks. The streets of Provo would be empty from 6 PM on October 31 till 6 AM on November 1.
Was remembering back to a Church dance in which the Dance Authorities (they do use that title, right?) threw such a fit because the lady with the best costume at the dance wore a mask. They made her remove it which spoiled the costume. Why? Because they said Church officials were against it. Bandits and Mexican wrestlers wore masks and so it displeased those Church officials enough that they condemned it. Perhaps it was revealed to them that bandits and Mexican wrestlers were less than valorous in the pre-existence.
Anyway, all it would take is for those same Authorities to express their displeasure with Halloween costumes and it would become part of Church doctrine to condemn any LDS participation in this event. Members would become less than worthy if they admitted to participating in any Halloween activities. No one could pass the Sacrament if they wore an orange tie. Pumpkins would become verboten in the Word of Wisdom. Children whose parents participated in Halloween would be denied membership until they turned 18, had the written permission of the First Presidency, and renounced their parents as witches and warlocks. The streets of Provo would be empty from 6 PM on October 31 till 6 AM on November 1.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha
-- Moksha
Re: Jack, the Pumpkin King
Or we end up like my super catholic neighbors--handing out a card to trick-or-treaters about why they don't celebrate a pagan holiday like halloween. (I can't claim to have read the whole thing.) It wasn't weird at all.moksha wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:36 pm I was thinking of Halloween earlier tonight.
Was remembering back to a Church dance in which the Dance Authorities (they do use that title, right?) threw such a fit because the lady with the best costume at the dance wore a mask. They made her remove it which spoiled the costume. Why? Because they said Church officials were against it. Bandits and Mexican wrestlers wore masks and so it displeased those Church officials enough that they condemned it. Perhaps it was revealed to them that bandits and Mexican wrestlers were less than valorous in the pre-existence.
Anyway, all it would take is for those same Authorities to express their displeasure with Halloween costumes and it would become part of Church doctrine to condemn any LDS participation in this event. Members would become less than worthy if they admitted to participating in any Halloween activities. No one could pass the Sacrament if they wore an orange tie. Pumpkins would become verboten in the Word of Wisdom. Children whose parents participated in Halloween would be denied membership until they turned 18, had the written permission of the First Presidency, and renounced their parents as witches and warlocks. The streets of Provo would be empty from 6 PM on October 31 till 6 AM on November 1.
You know what. It's not actually a bad idea. Now if only the church would come out with some cards we could pass along to people. It could be for halloween, or really, any time.
"Healing is impossible in loneliness; it is the opposite of loneliness. Conviviality is healing. To be healed we must come with all the other creates to the feast of Creation." --Wendell Berry
Re: Jack, the Pumpkin King
The girl who loved Jack, I forget her name, but the rag doll, knew Jack was getting the Christmas thing all wrong. It wasn't just that she wanted the old Jack back, but she knew him and that really he did belong in Haloween town.
Unlike Jack, though, most of us cannot go back to fitting in at Haloween town. It isn't just that we felt disatisfied and went looking for something different. We can't go back to fitting in at Haloween town. So perhaps the only option is to stay at Christmas town until we do understand it and are no longer trying to fake not being Mormon. I don't know, because I find I was dyed in the wool Mormon and I can't completely leave it, and I can't go back to fitting in at Haloween town.
I think the analogy is more complicated. When Haloween town was trying to be something it was not, it was just all wrong. Christmas carols sung in a minor key are just off. Scary presents are wrong. That is like the church today. It is pretending to be something it is not. Which just makes it all wrong. It just feels off, like the Christmas carols In the wrong key. And it is not what it is pretending to be. So, really, there is nothing we can go back to because the church is Haloween town pretending to be Christmas town. Gross.
Unless the church decides to come clean and really be what it is, which is a good organization with some good doctrines, and chuck the rest. Which is what Haloween town did, was stop pretending and get real. But we all know that the church will not chuck the false stuff. So we can't go back.
We are in some ways too Mormon to be nonmembers. Like Jack fitting in at Christmas town. But then again, Santa is pretty scary, so Maybe Jack fits in after all. Perhaps Jack needs to move to Christmas town and learn how to be less scary.
Unlike Jack, though, most of us cannot go back to fitting in at Haloween town. It isn't just that we felt disatisfied and went looking for something different. We can't go back to fitting in at Haloween town. So perhaps the only option is to stay at Christmas town until we do understand it and are no longer trying to fake not being Mormon. I don't know, because I find I was dyed in the wool Mormon and I can't completely leave it, and I can't go back to fitting in at Haloween town.
I think the analogy is more complicated. When Haloween town was trying to be something it was not, it was just all wrong. Christmas carols sung in a minor key are just off. Scary presents are wrong. That is like the church today. It is pretending to be something it is not. Which just makes it all wrong. It just feels off, like the Christmas carols In the wrong key. And it is not what it is pretending to be. So, really, there is nothing we can go back to because the church is Haloween town pretending to be Christmas town. Gross.
Unless the church decides to come clean and really be what it is, which is a good organization with some good doctrines, and chuck the rest. Which is what Haloween town did, was stop pretending and get real. But we all know that the church will not chuck the false stuff. So we can't go back.
We are in some ways too Mormon to be nonmembers. Like Jack fitting in at Christmas town. But then again, Santa is pretty scary, so Maybe Jack fits in after all. Perhaps Jack needs to move to Christmas town and learn how to be less scary.