NOM

I just found copies of the Handbook of Instructions from the 'olden days' through the current ones (I think its the most current). I've perused a lot of it.

On every BIG decision it says over and over: "consulted with their bishop".

Now,...come on here. Somehow this bishop has all this grand information?...and we are to consult with the bishop on whether we want to get a vasectomy?...if we want to take a family member off life support?...if we want to so this or that?

Is this about power, about the church thinking people are too stupid to make decisions for themselves, both or something else all together?

I have wondered about this very thing. The church teaches people to talk to their bishop about all important life decisions. Right there is the handbook you see several instances where the official advice is talk to your bishop about abortion if you were raped or your life is in danger, talk to the bishop before getting any permanent birth control like tubes tied or vasectomy, or talk to your bishop about taking someone off life support, All in addition to any confession you have.

Then they turn around and wonder why some ward member do just exactly that. Then they criticize the members for running to the bishop "for every little thing." But the official advice stays the same. And when you get talking about child sexual abuse, people blame the victim for going to the bishop instead of the police, as if we are all supposed to know that the church says "talk to your bishop" about any moral questions you have, but everybody knows that the church doesn't mean it.

Once upon a time I use to jokingly chastised people for wanting to know the Church's position on every little thing as wanting to know the church's position on waffles. From where I'm sitting now though I have a somewhat softer view, they're just doing what they've been trained to do their entire life. The church teaches you to follow the leadership and then creates this poorly recorded, white washed, redacted, and disavowed mess of doctrines, policies, and teachings and puts the literal fear of god in you if you take a stance contrary to teachings. Then to top it all off they put in books the rank and file don't see examples of times you are supposed to consult your Bishop, it results in conversations online where you'd get -

TBM 1: We decided after prayer to get a vasectomy.
TBM 2: Did you consult with your bishop like the handbook says.
TBM 1: Wait, it says I'm supposed to consult the bishop over this?
TBM 2: Yep, on page XX.
TBM 1: I don't have access to the handbook.
TBM 2: If you want to see it just go ask the bishop, he'll show you what it says about vasectomies.
TBM 1: But... but... I have to know I need to consult him over a vasectomy to know to go ask him to tell/show me what the handbook says.
TBM 2: Well, I guess you should just talk with your bishop about any big decision then.

Seems to me that religion in general has become popular with many small-minded folk.

There are and have been many brilliant people in the church- JS being one and brother Brig. Smart. Although they, in my opinion, used the church and the membership to bolster their egos and take beautiful women to bed, they focused constantly on the habit theory.

Habit one, read the scriptures daily, pray at least three times a day, or more if your daughter has lost her necklace, or your dog is lost.

It's the Mormon mantra. And why do it? The reward you idiot! I not only offer you peace on this earth, I promise eternal bliss- hell I will guarantee that if you do what I say you might even have your very own planet- considering there are trillions of them- go ahead, pick one.....it's yours.

But there's more! If you act now and do what I say I will make you- ready for this?- a God. Yes it's true! You - become - God.

When they get people who believe and follow those ideals, the only thing left is to control them completely. They do this in many ways, but the favorite is to put your faith in men. Not only men, but priesthood holders. Not only priesthood holder, but one with a position- a bishop on up.

Even in my TBM days I never went to the bishop about anything. Even then I realized he would not have an answer.

As far as are TBM's just stupid, no. I think deacon's discussion about grace applies here. But for the grace of god, fortune, luck or whatever go you. Just because we here have let go of that authority doesn't mean those who haven't are stupid.

It is totally about control in my view. Keep that dependence on the church authority structure and you will be too afraid or guilty to even look outside of the boat.

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:47 am Are TBMs just stupid?

Were you a TBM once upon a time Rob? Do you think you were stupid?

As a believer, I was doing the best I could, with the knowledge I had at the time, and a lifetime of brainwashing.

TBMS aren't stupid...well...maybe some of them...

I think more than anything they want to stay on the right side of God. They don't want to make mistakes or mis-steps.

The church has sold them on the concept of local access to revelation/God through their Bishop. Their very own little prophet who they can access almost any time they want, unlike those giant demi-gods who live in Salt Lake and come to our homes only twice a year through the miracle of television which was created for that purpose.

And those demi-gods constantly remind the membership not to bother them with your little problems. They're BUSY! That's why you've been given your own mini-prophet. Plus there's always the mini-prophet XP stake president, should your own mini-prophet need some backup.

This entire priestcraft design is arranged to keep members dependent while having the church official avoid accepting any responsibility for the members' ultimate decision. Hence the caveat all Bishops know by heart..., "I can't tell you what to do or make this decision for you, but....."

So in reality a Bishop is just a sounding board that (depending on the intelligence of the individual official) may or may not have some wisdom on whether or not you should stop bearing children....

Or maybe you could in reality make that decision one between you, Heavenly Father and your spouse?

Dravin wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:36 pm Then to top it all off they put in books the rank and file don't see examples of times you are supposed to consult your Bishop, it results in conversations online where you'd get -

TBM 1: We decided after prayer to get a vasectomy.
TBM 2: Did you consult with your bishop like the handbook says.
TBM 1: Wait, it says I'm supposed to consult the bishop over this?
TBM 2: Yep, on page XX.
TBM 1: I don't have access to the handbook.
TBM 2: If you want to see it just go ask the bishop, he'll show you what it says about vasectomies.
TBM 1: But... but... I have to know I need to consult him over a vasectomy to know to go ask him to tell/show me what the handbook says.
TBM 2: Well, I guess you should just talk with your bishop about any big decision then.

^^^^^THIS THIS THIS!!!!! I had this very thing happen to me in my TBM days. I got into a leadership calling right before I was to have this done. Had the appointment set and everything; we had our reasons and logically permanent birth control was the right thing to do. I read through the handbook for my new calling and ran into that. What. The. Hell. They don't preach anything about this from the pulpit and it's not like you go around talking about it in casual conversation or anything. So I thought I was in danger of horrible eternal consequences because of something I knew nothing about. I went to the bishop about this to discuss... you can probably guess the answer. Pray about it. Okay Bishop, thanks for that brilliant insight. After that I pretty much decided to just figure stuff out for myself and leave the bishop out of my personal life. Shelf item- added.

IQ-wise, no.

Interestingly, I seem to recall that cult members, on average, have higher IQ's than the general population.

But I'm sure that if Mormons were smarter than the average bear - we would all know about it.

Do TBMS disengage parts of their brains? Yes: cog dis.

I like most of the TBMS I know, most are decent good people. Most are plenty smart enough to enjoy their company and tap their brains for ideas - as long as it's not church related.

Emower wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:36 pm As far as are TBM's just stupid, no. I think deacon's discussion about grace applies here. But for the grace of god, fortune, luck or whatever go you. Just because we here have let go of that authority doesn't mean those who haven't are stupid.

It is totally about control in my view. Keep that dependence on the church authority structure and you will be too afraid or guilty to even look outside of the boat.

I'll second that. It's about control. So much of what the Church does is about control. If they can get you to go to the Bishop for all kinds of life decisions that aren't his business, they can get you to do most everything else they want you to do.

The Church senses it has to maintain control of the members in order to survive. If every member woke up tomorrow morning and said "forget it, I'm not doing your Church crap anymore" the whole organization would fall apart. Loss of control = members not willing to do Church crap = wheels coming off the wagon.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:56 pm

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:47 am Are TBMs just stupid?

Were you a TBM once upon a time Rob? Do you think you were stupid?

As a believer, I was doing the best I could, with the knowledge I had at the time, and a lifetime of brainwashing.

I just saw this, and don't know if I even responded. If this is a double post, please forgive.

In hind site,...I kindof think my post was...err....emotionally driven a little. I have bad days every now and then.

YES...I was TBM! I think I was a little stupid. It doesn't threaten me to say that. MORE so, however, I was ignorant: I had no idea this stuff was even out there. I was victim to the control of information. It wasn't until the internet I even knew some of this stuff existed.

So yeh...I'm emotionally driven, sometimes stupid,...but mostly ignorant. Its hard to learn to see when you are always in the dark.

I will say this though....I'm learning. And with that learning (and candor which doesn't threaten me in the least), I see more clearly all the time.

My main intent on this thread wasn't the general TBM person---it is the higher ups: those who are "in the know" (or should be).

It makes perfect sense if you actually believe the bishop has magical powers and a more direct bat phone to God than you do.

Are TBM's stupid. I was one for most of my life. I dont think I was stupid (I think being stupid is different than doing something stupid. Smart people do stupid things sometimes. Stupid people do smart things sometimes.)

Sadly I did something stupid as a TBM a few years back. I consulted with my BP about my vasectomy since I had been in previous bishoprics and was aware of the guidance in the HBofI.

It was an awkward conversation and he really didn't care and was surprised by the conversation. He didn't really want to consult with anyone about such a subject.

I think one of the "stupid things" I was taught, and everyone around me I know about, was to share VERY personal things with the bishop.

In hind site, I cringe when I think about my sons going into the bishop's office to discuss the things they did "last night". I don't have any girls, but the idea of a daughter going in and telling this untrained man about personal things makes me angry. I think that is abuse. Any of you daddies of girls out there have to deal with that?

We are trained to defer to authority, to accept counsel from those who have no training or business hearing certain things, and the whole thing is abusive IMHO.

I didn't consult with my bishop about my vasectomy, but by stake patriarch performed it. I figured it was OK.

I agree with Rob 4. It can be unsettling to think of some bishops interviewing teenage girls about 'chastity.'