NOM

After the Las Vegas mass shooting and the uproar against people sending thoughts and prayers I am primed to notice references to that. So last night when I found out my mom has blood clots in her lungs (it wasn't bad enough to get admitted to the hospital and she is expected to be fine) rather than send thoughts and prayers I called home. My dad answered and we talked for a while and I found it interesting that he would ask me to keep her in my prayers. He is being deliberately obtuse asking a known non-believer to pray, and he probably hopes my mother's poor health will bring my faith around, which I find disgusting. But outside of that he actually wants prayers for her. He really believes they are helpful.

So, while I personally think that thoughts and prayers are about as useful as a fart in the air conditioner, many people really think they are helping. I don't think attacking people for doing what they consider helpful is a good way to convince them of anything, other than that you are a jerk. The rally against thoughts and prayers seems more like the non-religious attacking the religious for being religious. One can both "send" thoughts and prayers and do something helpful, and they are not worse than those that just do something helpful. So I think rather than attacking thoughts and prayers, today I will encourage doing good.

Just some thoughts...

I find the "thoughts and prayers" jokes of recent years amusing (though they seem to have become a little more vicious lately, as has a lot of other discourse). But I think it's a little different when it's someone you know who might appreciate knowing that you've been thinking of them, as in your example. Especially in a situation where there's really not much you can do to help other than simply to be there, as with illness or death.

And while it's fun to analyze the logic of the efficacy of prayer, that (or a blessing) probably can help in some cases for a believer, even if not because of any divine intervention.

(Looks like Ghost beat me to the same point! )

I get what you're saying.

I'd give a little pushback that it's pretty different having a family member or friend say they will keep you in their 'thoughts & prayers' and throwing stuff up on social media which seems to be what frustrates most. Especially when those prone to make such statements are politicians in positions to make positive change but instead resort to platitudes while pocketing funds from advocacy groups.

Personally I will continue to tell people if I find their tactics particularly ineffective or self-serving while also trying to be tactful. Thanks for the reminder.

Saw this today on reddit

I understand your sentiment and think it is a good perspective (live and let live) sometimes, but let me play devil's advocate for a moment.

The argument against thoughts and prayers is the argument against believing in things for which there is no evidence. Considering how strong an influence belief/faith is in people's lives, I think it is reasonable to expect people to justify their beliefs. People make daily as well as huge life and death decisions based on these beliefs. A Mormon could justify giving a blessing before calling 911, a JW could justify denying a blood transfusion, a muslim could justify blowing himself up in a crowd for glory in the afterlife. Are these actions and motivations protected from criticism because they are in the realm of faith? They should not be.

It makes some people feel better when they can pray/send thoughts over a situation they have little control over. I think it is about feeling useful and sending kind thoughts "out there" is cathartic and centers us.

With the recent tragedies/disasters I have little I can do directly with those affected, but make sure I am mindful of those around me, and think back on that tragedy made me feel and endeavor to help others with their own personal tragedies.

When asked to keep someone in my prayers/thoughts/fasts. I usually reply, "of course, I want nothing but the best for you/them."

The Las Vegas shooting made me think of this short video.

https://youtu.be/x8-baHzSjoY

Helping, and comforting others, is the bigger part of the equation, than praying, with prayer coming last, when you are out of options. Also when you are stuck, and can not fix it yourself, prayer can help. So many times, in the recent past, I been out of options, and prayer helped me quite a few times. Much of my life, it seemed like prayer never helped ever, until recently. So much of it is in the recent few years.

"Faith without Works" is dead, meaning that people are praying, but not helping or comforting others in time of need. The "Works", part of it is knowledge, with helping others. The Faith part of the equation, is part belief, and prayer. You can give thanks anytime in a prayer, but a call for help in a prayer, pretty much is when you are out of options.

I did give a donation, to help. There recently was the earthquake, and at least 3 hurricanes, and now the shooting. Pretty crazy.

- Please know that prayer is part thanking, and when you are out of options. The veil is a huge part of the problem, in that the physical realm is separated, from the rest of the universe. Heaven, Hell, and God are not even a part of this physical realm. The world, indeed, is a mess, also religion is a mess, but I very much believe in a spirit world beyond this. Guardian Angels can and will help you, when you are in a life and death situation, but sometimes their hands can be tied too, if you lack belief in at least a spirit world, that is not of this physical realm, but also if you totally reject God, prayer is useless.

This was not easy to write at all.

Ghost wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:18 pm I find the "thoughts and prayers" jokes of recent years amusing (though they seem to have become a little more vicious lately, as has a lot of other discourse). But I think it's a little different when it's someone you know who might appreciate knowing that you've been thinking of them, as in your example. Especially in a situation where there's really not much you can do to help other than simply to be there, as with illness or death.

And while it's fun to analyze the logic of the efficacy of prayer, that (or a blessing) probably can help in some cases for a believer, even if not because of any divine intervention.

I love this!^^

When my son died, there wasn't a lot anyone could do for me. But I felt a small measure of comfort because people were taking time out of their lives to acknowledge my pain through their thoughts, prayers, healing vibes and positive energy etc.

But in situations where we actually can do something, we should.

Ghost wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:18 pm I find the "thoughts and prayers" jokes of recent years amusing (though they seem to have become a little more vicious lately, as has a lot of other discourse). But I think it's a little different when it's someone you know who might appreciate knowing that you've been thinking of them, as in your example. Especially in a situation where there's really not much you can do to help other than simply to be there, as with illness or death.

And while it's fun to analyze the logic of the efficacy of prayer, that (or a blessing) probably can help in some cases for a believer, even if not because of any divine intervention.

LaMachina wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:26 pm (Looks like Ghost beat me to the same point! )

I get what you're saying.

I'd give a little pushback that it's pretty different having a family member or friend say they will keep you in their 'thoughts & prayers' and throwing stuff up on social media which seems to be what frustrates most. Especially when those prone to make such statements are politicians in positions to make positive change but instead resort to platitudes while pocketing funds from advocacy groups.

Personally I will continue to tell people if I find their tactics particularly ineffective or self-serving while also trying to be tactful. Thanks for the reminder.

You both make a great point. Announcing to the world that you are sending thoughts and prayers about some huge event involving people you don't know is far different than calling your mother. LaMachina, I think your comment on politicians is key; they are doing nothing and trying to get credit for doing something. If they actually did something about it then who cares if they send thoughts and prayers? Same with the little people.

didyoumythme wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:16 pm I understand your sentiment and think it is a good perspective (live and let live) sometimes, but let me play devil's advocate for a moment.

The argument against thoughts and prayers is the argument against believing in things for which there is no evidence. Considering how strong an influence belief/faith is in people's lives, I think it is reasonable to expect people to justify their beliefs. People make daily as well as huge life and death decisions based on these beliefs. A Mormon could justify giving a blessing before calling 911, a JW could justify denying a blood transfusion, a muslim could justify blowing himself up in a crowd for glory in the afterlife. Are these actions and motivations protected from criticism because they are in the realm of faith? They should not be.

This is basically what I meant about the non-religious attacking the religious for being religious. I consider myself on the side that requires evidence, and my biggest pet peeves are related to dogmatic belief. But if you are trying to convince a religious person that thoughts and prayers are stupid then I would say that throwing what they believe is a service back in their faces is not the way to do it. Yes, dogmatic belief can have many downsides like your examples. It also holds back science and policy, and was even worse about it back when christianity said the earth was the center of everything. But attacking those who pray for good things for others is not going to fix it. So let them have their feel good moment and work to update their worldviews in more effective ways. (And if you have effective ways please teach me .

Raylan Givens wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:12 pm It makes some people feel better when they can pray/send thoughts over a situation they have little control over. I think it is about feeling useful and sending kind thoughts "out there" is cathartic and centers us.

With the recent tragedies/disasters I have little I can do directly with those affected, but make sure I am mindful of those around me, and think back on that tragedy made me feel and endeavor to help others with their own personal tragedies.

When asked to keep someone in my prayers/thoughts/fasts. I usually reply, "of course, I want nothing but the best for you/them."

I like this, thanks for your comment.

Geocacher wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:33 am Helping, and comforting others, is the bigger part of the equation, than praying, with prayer coming last, when you are out of options. Also when you are stuck, and can not fix it yourself, prayer can help. So many times, in the recent past, I been out of options, and prayer helped me quite a few times. Much of my life, it seemed like prayer never helped ever, until recently. So much of it is in the recent few years.

"Faith without Works" is dead, meaning that people are praying, but not helping or comforting others in time of need. The "Works", part of it is knowledge, with helping others. The Faith part of the equation, is part belief, and prayer. You can give thanks anytime in a prayer, but a call for help in a prayer, pretty much is when you are out of options.

I did give a donation, to help. There recently was the earthquake, and at least 3 hurricanes, and now the shooting. Pretty crazy.

- Please know that prayer is part thanking, and when you are out of options. The veil is a huge part of the problem, in that the physical realm is separated, from the rest of the universe. Heaven, Hell, and God are not even a part of this physical realm. The world, indeed, is a mess, also religion is a mess, but I very much believe in a spirit world beyond this. Guardian Angels can and will help you, when you are in a life and death situation, but sometimes their hands can be tied too, if you lack belief in at least a spirit world, that is not of this physical realm, but also if you totally reject God, prayer is useless.

This was not easy to write at all.

This is something I would have written a few years ago. I think I understand what you are saying, but that is not how I see it anymore. I am glad to hear you helped out with your donation. I don't think anyone is listening to anyone's prayers, and I am pretty sure no one is answering them. But I do think prayer is not useless even for a non-believer; it can be a method of expressing one's gratitude and desires, and can help keep a person focused. I also question that you are in a position to write as authoritatively on the subject as you have, though I appreciate your comment.