NOM

It seems a blight on Mormon history has just become very personal for me. September 11th again brought much emotion not only in remembrance of the 2001 events but for that dark day in 1857 known as the Mountain Meadow Massacre. I learned about the massacre several years ago and avoided searching deeper because I had many ancestors who settled in that area. It was a very real possibility that they, horror of all horrors, could have been participants. I avoided knowing. Monday I searched to know. It was time. It was easy to find the list of "Shooters and Clubbers." It was even easier to find the familiar names I hoped would not appear on the list.
 
http://www.1857massacre.com/MMM/shooters.htm

My great, great, great, grandmother (give or take a few greats) married a man who was her 3rd husband. He is on the list. He is not my ggg grandfather by birth, but none the less, "family" and the only father most of her children remember. There is much written about her life that told a story of strength and determination. I admired this woman so much I gave her middle name to one of my daughters. At least I thought I knew her. That little part about her husband helping to murder 120 innocent men, women and children was left out. Was it was to horrific to mention or so meaningless it wasn't worth mentioning?

I have a question Great great great grandpa SeeNoEvil.... Were you a shooter or a clubber?

And, great great great grandma SeeNoEvil did you know? That morning when you kissed him good bye... did you know he was meeting up with the militia joining cousins, neighbors and dear friends going off to slaughter 120 innocent men, women and children?  When he came home that night what did he tell you when you asked, "How was your day?"  Did you notice the blood on his boots and splattered on his pants? Did you cradle him in your lap as he wept? Did he wept?

She had to have known.  Did she praise him for following the prophet or recoil and never let him touch her again?  I can't imagine the conversation she had with him over this. At what point did something so vile and repulsive become right in their eyes?

I am struggling with this. How did this happen? They were ordinary people, just trying to do their best and follow their God and Prophet. From what I know of them they weren't evil people. Yes, it was a polygamous situation but they were families just trying to survive and follow their God. If we can learn anything from that day it is that any one of us is capable of doing almost anything if we are under the right social and cultural pressures. Mountain Meadows Massacre was a tragedy that had no winners.

I can tell you exactly how it happened. You had a madman out in the wilderness away from the rest of civilization leading a religious organization full of zealots willing to perform his every whim and blindly do whatever he told them. When some of those zealots thought he wanted them to wipe out a wagon train, that wagon train was doomed.

Don't kid yourself - there are plenty of members around today who would do the same thing in the same circumstances. Some of them are friends of yours in the ward. On Sept. 11, 1857, I'd like to think there were a few NOMish types in southern Utah who opted out of that priesthood-led activity. But there were plenty willing to "do their duty".

Hugs SNE! This is a lot to deal with.

The truth is you would have a hard time finding someone who doesn't have an ancestor that has done something super sh!tty.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:19 am I can tell you exactly how it happened. You had a madman out in the wilderness away from the rest of civilization leading a religious organization full of zealots willing to perform his every whim and blindly do whatever he told them. When some of those zealots thought he wanted them to wipe out a wagon train, that wagon train was doomed.

Don't kid yourself - there are plenty of members around today who would do the same thing in the same circumstances. Some of them are friends of yours in the ward. On Sept. 11, 1857, I'd like to think there were a few NOMish types in southern Utah who opted out of that priesthood-led activity. But there were plenty willing to "do their duty".

This reminds me of the Milgram experiment:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Sad stuff. But we need to be aware of the horrors that can come from "following orders."

Yep SNE, that's a harsh reality to deal with.

I don't know if I have any ancestors who were involved. I suspect if I poked around enough, I could find someone. When it comes to that time period, I think almost ALL mormons end up being related. The polygamy in my ancestry is hard enough for me to deal with, so I don't think I'm at a point where I can look into Mountain Meadows like you did.

SeeNoEvil wrote: ↑Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:26 pm I am struggling with this. How did this happen? They were ordinary people, just trying to do their best and follow their God and Prophet. From what I know of them they weren't evil people. Yes, it was a polygamous situation but they were families just trying to survive and follow their God. If we can learn anything from that day it is that any one of us is capable of doing almost anything if we are under the right social and cultural pressures. Mountain Meadows Massacre was a tragedy that had no winners.

I've actually tried to be a bit introspective a time or two since finding the truth about the LDS Corporation, and the above paragraph, and especially the bold portion scares the sh** out of me. I do think that there were times in my life, probably mostly during the two-year forced, unpaid sales gig for the Corporation, where I wanted more than anything to "do my duty". I sure hope that if I had been in the shoes of one of those men, that I wouldn't have taken it to the extreme conclusion and pulled a trigger, or swung a club. There really is no justification for what happened at Mountain Meadows, or many other awful things that the Corporation has done, no matter how many excuses the apologists make up.

MoPag wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:56 am But there were plenty willing to "do their duty".

Reminds me of that line from the Mountain Meadows movie, "Mormons, do your duty!" Have you ever wondered whether Utah has shied away from hate crime legislation for fear it could be applied retroactively?

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:19 amDon't kid yourself - there are plenty of members around today who would do the same thing in the same circumstances. Some of them are friends of yours in the ward. On Sept. 11, 1857, I'd like to think there were a few NOMish types in southern Utah who opted out of that priesthood-led activity. But there were plenty willing to "do their duty".

One of the articles on the massacre I read mentioned one man who refused to participate. He was tied to a pole and made to watch. I am sure there were others who stayed away and did not want anything to do with it. I wonder how they... those that chose to not fight were received back at home.

MoPag wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:56 am Hugs SNE! This is a lot to deal with.

The truth is you would have a hard time finding someone who doesn't have an ancestor that has done something super sh!tty.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:19 am I can tell you exactly how it happened. You had a madman out in the wilderness away from the rest of civilization leading a religious organization full of zealots willing to perform his every whim and blindly do whatever he told them. When some of those zealots thought he wanted them to wipe out a wagon train, that wagon train was doomed.

Don't kid yourself - there are plenty of members around today who would do the same thing in the same circumstances. Some of them are friends of yours in the ward. On Sept. 11, 1857, I'd like to think there were a few NOMish types in southern Utah who opted out of that priesthood-led activity. But there were plenty willing to "do their duty".

This reminds me of the Milgram experiment:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Sad stuff. But we need to be aware of the horrors that can come from "following orders."

I hadn't heard of the Milgram experiment. This is fascinating. Over the past few days I have tried to put myself in the shoes of my ancestors that participated. I imagine day in and day out their heads filled with stories, rumors, hateful rhetoric and fear. Pumped to protect their families and vow to revenge their own histories they were sent into battle. I get it. Just still a hard pill to swallow.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:05 pm Yep SNE, that's a harsh reality to deal with.

I don't know if I have any ancestors who were involved. I suspect if I poked around enough, I could find someone. When it comes to that time period, I think almost ALL mormons end up being related. The polygamy in my ancestry is hard enough for me to deal with, so I don't think I'm at a point where I can look into Mountain Meadows like you did.

SeeNoEvil wrote: ↑Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:26 pm I am struggling with this. How did this happen? They were ordinary people, just trying to do their best and follow their God and Prophet. From what I know of them they weren't evil people. Yes, it was a polygamous situation but they were families just trying to survive and follow their God. If we can learn anything from that day it is that any one of us is capable of doing almost anything if we are under the right social and cultural pressures. Mountain Meadows Massacre was a tragedy that had no winners.

I've actually tried to be a bit introspective a time or two since finding the truth about the LDS Corporation, and the above paragraph, and especially the bold portion scares the sh** out of me. I do think that there were times in my life, probably mostly during the two-year forced, unpaid sales gig for the Corporation, where I wanted more than anything to "do my duty". I sure hope that if I had been in the shoes of one of those men, that I wouldn't have taken it to the extreme conclusion and pulled a trigger, or swung a club. There really is no justification for what happened at Mountain Meadows, or many other awful things that the Corporation has done, no matter how many excuses the apologists make up.

As much as I read and search out how this could happen and read fascinating studies such as the Milgram Experiment I still do not understand how this could have happened. I agree with you.... there.is.no.excuse.

moksha wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:32 pm

MoPag wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:56 am But there were plenty willing to "do their duty".

Reminds me of that line from the Mountain Meadows movie, "Mormons, do your duty!" Have you ever wondered whether Utah has shied away from hate crime legislation for fear it could be applied retroactively?

Excellent observation! You would think some lessons are being learned from the November hate policy and the destroyed families and lives in its wake.

Sometimes we look at history with hindsight, and think things are more black and white than they actually were.

My dad somehow had "inside information" and shared some stuff that was not known until after they dug up and moved some of the Francher party's bodies, and found they were shot in the back of the head.

But, there were cattle that died mysteriously and the settles honestly thought the Francher party had poisoned the water. Some things, supplies that the settlers needed to get through the winter were stolen and the Francher party was in town, so they got blamed. At first, the settlers just wanted to get the stolen supplies back, but things escalated out of control. People got killed, the Francher party knew it was settlers, not Piutes. A decision was made to get rid of witnesses, and some of the settlers disagreed and wanted to back out, but others pulled guns on the ones wanting to back out, and told them they were already in too far to back out.

Now, take this for what it is worth, I have no idea how my dad knew theFrancher men were shot in the back of the head, back before anyone outside the men who were there knew it was in cold blood. I suspect that when he was young, some old coot who was there talked to him. I can't vouch for any of it. But, if people came through your town poisoning your cattle (some Piutes died too, and one teen boy was sick and later died.) and stealing things you needed to survive in a frontier town, wouldn't you do what you needed to in order to stop them from poisoning cows and people and robbing you? (Someone is testing to see if anthrax killed the cows, so the settlers may have been innocent of that, but the settlers did not know disease was a possibility.)

Now, there is no excuse for killing the whole party after they surrendered. Zero, zip. But there are still two valid sides to the story, so, don't paint your ancestor black. He may have been one who wanted to stop once the Francher party surrendered and then had his friends turn their guns on him.

alas wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:30 am Sometimes we look at history with hindsight, and think things are more black and white than they actually were.

My dad somehow had "inside information" and shared some stuff that was not known until after they dug up and moved some of the Francher party's bodies, and found they were shot in the back of the head.

But, there were cattle that died mysteriously and the settles honestly thought the Francher party had poisoned the water. Some things, supplies that the settlers needed to get through the winter were stolen and the Francher party was in town, so they got blamed. At first, the settlers just wanted to get the stolen supplies back, but things escalated out of control. People got killed, the Francher party knew it was settlers, not Piutes. A decision was made to get rid of witnesses, and some of the settlers disagreed and wanted to back out, but others pulled guns on the ones wanting to back out, and told them they were already in too far to back out.

Now, take this for what it is worth, I have no idea how my dad knew theFrancher men were shot in the back of the head, back before anyone outside the men who were there knew it was in cold blood. I suspect that when he was young, some old coot who was there talked to him. I can't vouch for any of it. But, if people came through your town poisoning your cattle (some Piutes died too, and one teen boy was sick and later died.) and stealing things you needed to survive in a frontier town, wouldn't you do what you needed to in order to stop them from poisoning cows and people and robbing you? (Someone is testing to see if anthrax killed the cows, so the settlers may have been innocent of that, but the settlers did not know disease was a possibility.)

Now, there is no excuse for killing the whole party after they surrendered. Zero, zip. But there are still two valid sides to the story, so, don't paint your ancestor black. He may have been one who wanted to stop once the Francher party surrendered and then had his friends turn their guns on him.

I wish I knew just went on. I think one of the disturbing things has been in all that has been written on my ggg grandmother this was left out. I have also read several writings about him and there is no mention. There are no words to defend or explain where he was on that day and what actually was his part in it. I would have never known had I not found his name on the list of "Shooters and Clubbers." Thank you for sharing the story that has been passed down through your family. I can't imagine this was an act any of them went excited into battle for. I would think they were haunted by this the rest of their lives. I knew there were the stories and rumors of things happening in the area and they were looking to find who did it. Even if the pioneers were guilty I agree, to slaughter the entire group is a bit drastic.

I'm also deeply bothered by this terrible event in our history (and my ggg grandfather was one of the shooters/clubbers). As much as we try, we simply can't understand everything that led up to this horrific event or why it happened. We can only strive to not repeat the same or similar mistakes in our future.

I've been bothered by my ggggggggggggggggggggggggggg great grand daddy killing his brother Able. Not sure how his parents, Adam and Eve, were able to mourn the loss of their son but I bet it impacted their lives deeply forever after.

He was a Clubber.

I wrote a research paper on this in college. I was told to take a controversial point of view. My original premise was that it was by Brigham Young's orders. It can't be proven. So, I switched my premise to it was justified.

First of all, Brigham Young had prophecies that if they could live unbothered for ten years, they would survive and prosper. However, back in Washington, D. C., rumors were circulating that the Mormons were assembling an army and going to attack the United States. So, Buchanan sent put a battalion to quash the rebellion. The army arrived at the edge of Mormon territory somewhere in May of 1857. This event, known as the Utah war was from 1857-8. So, this doomed Baker-Fancher party, from Arkansas and Missouri sought safe passage through territory that was at war with the United States.

Not only was this party from the United States, one of the areas they were from was Missouri. Remember, there was a standing extermination order against Mormons in Missouri. Add to this Alas's comments and the fact that many of the people in this party just weren't too good at reading the room. They would name their cattle Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and beat and curse the cattle. They would rub salt in old wounds over events in Missouri, particularly Haun's Mill. They expressed the desire to tar and feather or kill members of the church.

The frontier of the United States was still largely lawless territory and there were a lot of people taking matters into their own hands, back then. I think that is a lot of what went on in the early church and I even think Carthage was a case of that. Add to that the curse upon the enemies of the church in the D & C and the blood oaths taken in the temple and it truly was a powder keg. I'm not saying what they did was right, because in hindsight, the level of planning and organization to carry this out exhibits a frightening level of pathology. The Baker-Fancher parties were stripped of their weapons by the Mormons, that morning. So, they were unarmed. However, I don't think they were entirely innocent. Given the fact that members of the Baker-Fancher parties had expressed a desire to continue the persecution that had been visited upon them, so it's very easy for me to imagine this happening in reverse.

The big problem is the children. When I did this research paper, I was TBM and I thought that sparing the children was evidence of compassion. I no longer do. However, wiping them out, entirely is just. This is difficult, because there are no words.

Bottom my line:

We were at war
This party passing through would have been the equivalent of a group of American Jews wanting safe passage through Hitler's Germany on their way to the Holy Land.
I'm not sure the members of the Baker-Fancher party were aware of the revenge and blood oaths the members of the early church took.
Then, the members of Baker-Fancher party were deliberately poking the bear as the passed through.

Was it right? No
Was it justified? No
If I were isolated as the members in that area were, given my beliefs about the rightness of the church and the wrongness of the persecution. If I had survived the Haun's Mill massacre and forced to leave my home, because of an extermination order, if my prophet had been martyred, if I had been a pioneer who had to walk across the plains, if my husband had been drafted for the Mormon Battalion by the very country that was forcing us out to do a favor for that country and I then had to get myself and my family to Utah without the help of my husband, if I then moved to a remote part of Utah and been living my life and minding my own business for almost ten years and then hear we are at war with that country that wanted us gone and then hear that there was a party from that country and from that state coming through, if I heard that they were threatening to visit that old persecution on me and my family, again. Persecution I thought I had left behind me, if I had read scriptures about the Lord avenging us, if I attended the temple and took blood oaths, if all my neighbors were doing the same and I didn't feel I could safely conscientiously object, it isn't hard for me to imagine doing the same.

God help me. I can imagine myself doing the same.

SeeNoEvil wrote: ↑Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:26 pm It seems a blight on Mormon history has just become very personal for me. September 11th again brought much emotion not only in remembrance of the 2001 events but for that dark day in 1857 known as the Mountain Meadow Massacre. I learned about the massacre several years ago and avoided searching deeper because I had many ancestors who settled in that area. It was a very real possibility that they, horror of all horrors, could have been participants. I avoided knowing. Monday I searched to know. It was time. It was easy to find the list of "Shooters and Clubbers." It was even easier to find the familiar names I hoped would not appear on the list.

I am struggling with this. How did this happen? They were ordinary people, just trying to do their best and follow their God and Prophet. From what I know of them they weren't evil people. Yes, it was a polygamous situation but they were families just trying to survive and follow their God. If we can learn anything from that day it is that any one of us is capable of doing almost anything if we are under the right social and cultural pressures. Mountain Meadows Massacre was a tragedy that had no winners.

This tells me that we all need a "Gospel of Grace." If I tell myself, "I would never do that" I am deceiving myself. (1st John 1:8)

This is why I can't condemn Attila the Hun, Hitler, Ted Bundy, John Wilkes Booth, or anyone else, without thinking, "there but for the grace of God go I."

Mahonri Moriancumer wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:55 pm I'm also deeply bothered by this terrible event in our history (and my ggg grandfather was one of the shooters/clubbers). As much as we try, we simply can't understand everything that led up to this horrific event or why it happened. We can only strive to not repeat the same or similar mistakes in our future.

I am sorry to hear this. It could be your ggg grandfather was a friend, neighbor, relative or maybe goes by the same name as mine.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:30 am I've been bothered by my ggggggggggggggggggggggggggg great grand daddy killing his brother Able. Not sure how his parents, Adam and Eve, were able to mourn the loss of their son but I bet it impacted their lives deeply forever after.

He was a Clubber.

Good point. I never understood that story either.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:44 pm

SeeNoEvil wrote: ↑Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:26 pm It seems a blight on Mormon history has just become very personal for me. September 11th again brought much emotion not only in remembrance of the 2001 events but for that dark day in 1857 known as the Mountain Meadow Massacre. I learned about the massacre several years ago and avoided searching deeper because I had many ancestors who settled in that area. It was a very real possibility that they, horror of all horrors, could have been participants. I avoided knowing. Monday I searched to know. It was time. It was easy to find the list of "Shooters and Clubbers." It was even easier to find the familiar names I hoped would not appear on the list.

I am struggling with this. How did this happen? They were ordinary people, just trying to do their best and follow their God and Prophet. From what I know of them they weren't evil people. Yes, it was a polygamous situation but they were families just trying to survive and follow their God. If we can learn anything from that day it is that any one of us is capable of doing almost anything if we are under the right social and cultural pressures. Mountain Meadows Massacre was a tragedy that had no winners.

This tells me that we all need a "Gospel of Grace." If I tell myself, "I would never do that" I am deceiving myself. (1st John 1:8)

This is why I can't condemn Attila the Hun, Hitler, Ted Bundy, John Wilkes Booth, or anyone else, without thinking, "there but for the grace of God go I."

This has most definitely caused me to ponder on what would I do if was in a similar situation. Of course it does not excuse the act but maybe help explain what could cause change inside the mind.

Nice article. Thanks for filling in some of the blanks! I've bolded some of your comments as ones that give me much to think about. There has been a lot written on this event so I keep searching for more on my ggg grandmothers husband. One article stated that eventually those who were not immediately arrested just disappeared. I suspect that is why the history for my ggg grandmother becomes vague.

Give It Time wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:49 am I wrote a research paper on this in college. I was told to take a controversial point of view. My original premise was that it was by Brigham Young's orders. It can't be proven. So, I switched my premise to it was justified.

First of all, Brigham Young had prophecies that if they could live unbothered for ten years, they would survive and prosper. However, back in Washington, D. C., rumors were circulating that the Mormons were assembling an army and going to attack the United States. So, Buchanan sent put a battalion to quash the rebellion. The army arrived at the edge of Mormon territory somewhere in May of 1857. This event, known as the Utah war was from 1857-8. So, this doomed Baker-Fancher party, from Arkansas and Missouri sought safe passage through territory that was at war with the United States.

Not only was this party from the United States, one of the areas they were from was Missouri. Remember, there was a standing extermination order against Mormons in Missouri. Add to this Alas's comments and the fact that many of the people in this party just weren't too good at reading the room. They would name their cattle Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and beat and curse the cattle. They would rub salt in old wounds over events in Missouri, particularly Haun's Mill. They expressed the desire to tar and feather or kill members of the church.

The frontier of the United States was still largely lawless territory and there were a lot of people taking matters into their own hands, back then. I think that is a lot of what went on in the early church and I even think Carthage was a case of that. Add to that the curse upon the enemies of the church in the D & C and the blood oaths taken in the temple and it truly was a powder keg. I'm not saying what they did was right, because in hindsight, the level of planning and organization to carry this out exhibits a frightening level of pathology. The Baker-Fancher parties were stripped of their weapons by the Mormons, that morning. So, they were unarmed. However, I don't think they were entirely innocent. Given the fact that members of the Baker-Fancher parties had expressed a desire to continue the persecution that had been visited upon them, so it's very easy for me to imagine this happening in reverse.

The big problem is the children. When I did this research paper, I was TBM and I thought that sparing the children was evidence of compassion. I no longer do. However, wiping them out, entirely is just. This is difficult, because there are no words.

Bottom my line:

We were at war
This party passing through would have been the equivalent of a group of American Jews wanting safe passage through Hitler's Germany on their way to the Holy Land.
I'm not sure the members of the Baker-Fancher party were aware of the revenge and blood oaths the members of the early church took.
Then, the members of Baker-Fancher party were deliberately poking the bear as the passed through.

Was it right? No
Was it justified? No
If I were isolated as the members in that area were, given my beliefs about the rightness of the church and the wrongness of the persecution. If I had survived the Haun's Mill massacre and forced to leave my home, because of an extermination order, if my prophet had been martyred, if I had been a pioneer who had to walk across the plains, if my husband had been drafted for the Mormon Battalion by the very country that was forcing us out to do a favor for that country and I then had to get myself and my family to Utah without the help of my husband, if I then moved to a remote part of Utah and been living my life and minding my own business for almost ten years and then hear we are at war with that country that wanted us gone and then hear that there was a party from that country and from that state coming through, if I heard that they were threatening to visit that old persecution on me and my family, again. Persecution I thought I had left behind me, if I had read scriptures about the Lord avenging us, if I attended the temple and took blood oaths, if all my neighbors were doing the same and I didn't feel I could safely conscientiously object, it isn't hard for me to imagine doing the same.

God help me. I can imagine myself doing the same.

SeeNoEvil wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:05 pm Nice article. Thanks for filling in some of the blanks! I've bolded some of your comments as ones that give me much to think about. There has been a lot written on this event so I keep searching for more on my ggg grandmothers husband. One article stated that eventually those who were not immediately arrested just disappeared. I suspect that is why the history for my ggg grandmother becomes vague.

Give It Time wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:49 am I wrote a research paper on this in college. I was told to take a controversial point of view. My original premise was that it was by Brigham Young's orders. It can't be proven. So, I switched my premise to it was justified.

First of all, Brigham Young had prophecies that if they could live unbothered for ten years, they would survive and prosper. However, back in Washington, D. C., rumors were circulating that the Mormons were assembling an army and going to attack the United States. So, Buchanan sent put a battalion to quash the rebellion. The army arrived at the edge of Mormon territory somewhere in May of 1857. This event, known as the Utah war was from 1857-8. So, this doomed Baker-Fancher party, from Arkansas and Missouri sought safe passage through territory that was at war with the United States.

Not only was this party from the United States, one of the areas they were from was Missouri. Remember, there was a standing extermination order against Mormons in Missouri. Add to this Alas's comments and the fact that many of the people in this party just weren't too good at reading the room. They would name their cattle Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and beat and curse the cattle. They would rub salt in old wounds over events in Missouri, particularly Haun's Mill. They expressed the desire to tar and feather or kill members of the church.

The frontier of the United States was still largely lawless territory and there were a lot of people taking matters into their own hands, back then. I think that is a lot of what went on in the early church and I even think Carthage was a case of that. Add to that the curse upon the enemies of the church in the D & C and the blood oaths taken in the temple and it truly was a powder keg. I'm not saying what they did was right, because in hindsight, the level of planning and organization to carry this out exhibits a frightening level of pathology. The Baker-Fancher parties were stripped of their weapons by the Mormons, that morning. So, they were unarmed. However, I don't think they were entirely innocent. Given the fact that members of the Baker-Fancher parties had expressed a desire to continue the persecution that had been visited upon them, so it's very easy for me to imagine this happening in reverse.

The big problem is the children. When I did this research paper, I was TBM and I thought that sparing the children was evidence of compassion. I no longer do. However, wiping them out, entirely is just. This is difficult, because there are no words.

Bottom my line:

We were at war
This party passing through would have been the equivalent of a group of American Jews wanting safe passage through Hitler's Germany on their way to the Holy Land.
I'm not sure the members of the Baker-Fancher party were aware of the revenge and blood oaths the members of the early church took.
Then, the members of Baker-Fancher party were deliberately poking the bear as the passed through.

Was it right? No
Was it justified? No
If I were isolated as the members in that area were, given my beliefs about the rightness of the church and the wrongness of the persecution. If I had survived the Haun's Mill massacre and forced to leave my home, because of an extermination order, if my prophet had been martyred, if I had been a pioneer who had to walk across the plains, if my husband had been drafted for the Mormon Battalion by the very country that was forcing us out to do a favor for that country and I then had to get myself and my family to Utah without the help of my husband, if I then moved to a remote part of Utah and been living my life and minding my own business for almost ten years and then hear we are at war with that country that wanted us gone and then hear that there was a party from that country and from that state coming through, if I heard that they were threatening to visit that old persecution on me and my family, again. Persecution I thought I had left behind me, if I had read scriptures about the Lord avenging us, if I attended the temple and took blood oaths, if all my neighbors were doing the same and I didn't feel I could safely conscientiously object, it isn't hard for me to imagine doing the same.

God help me. I can imagine myself doing the same.

SNE, this was such an awful event in our Church's history. Not nearly enough people faced justice. It was horrible, horrible, horrible and I don't blame you one bit for being disillusioned with your forebears.

SNE my DW's GGG-ma married the Haight guy who was heavily involved. Their lineage in the church now is sealed to him even though biologically they are McFarlane's.

It is a super messy event. I have read blood of the prophets and listened to many podcasts on the subject. I don't fault the members but I do fault the leaders for putting them into this culture of revenge and avenge for the sins of Joseph (polygamy and it's cover up).

We will never know but I certainly distrust the LDS stories of why they did what they did and certainly the involvement of the native Americans.

MalcolmVillager wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:32 pm SNE my DW's GGG-ma married the Haight guy who was heavily involved. Their lineage in the church now is sealed to him even though biologically they are McFarlane's.

It is a super messy event. I have read blood of the prophets and listened to many podcasts on the subject. I don't fault the members but I do fault the leaders for putting them into this culture of revenge and avenge for the sins of Joseph (polygamy and it's cover up).

We will never know but I certainly distrust the LDS stories of why they did what they did and certainly the involvement of the native Americans.

Wow! Haight? WOW!

I have read only articles I found on the internet. I try to steer away from anything written by a member. The churches history is all about lying for the Lord. There are a lot of books out there written and I don't know which would be a good start. You said you read blood of the prophets. Are you talking about the one by Will Bagley? Do you recommend this one?

SeeNoEvil wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:07 pm

MalcolmVillager wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:32 pm SNE my DW's GGG-ma married the Haight guy who was heavily involved. Their lineage in the church now is sealed to him even though biologically they are McFarlane's.

It is a super messy event. I have read blood of the prophets and listened to many podcasts on the subject. I don't fault the members but I do fault the leaders for putting them into this culture of revenge and avenge for the sins of Joseph (polygamy and it's cover up).

We will never know but I certainly distrust the LDS stories of why they did what they did and certainly the involvement of the native Americans.

Wow! Haight? WOW!

I have read only articles I found on the internet. I try to steer away from anything written by a member. The churches history is all about lying for the Lord. There are a lot of books out there written and I don't know which would be a good start. You said you read blood of the prophets. Are you talking about the one by Will Bagley? Do you recommend this one?

Yes, that is the one. I do recommend it!

Give It Time wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:17 pmSNE, this was such an awful event in our Church's history. Not nearly enough people faced justice. It was horrible, horrible, horrible and I don't blame you one bit for being disillusioned with your forebears.

Today I came across an article on the churches Danite Hitmen. I hope there isn't a list anywhere because I just don't want to know if there any more SeeNoEvil relatives on it!

SeeNoEvil wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:28 pm

Give It Time wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:17 pmSNE, this was such an awful event in our Church's history. Not nearly enough people faced justice. It was horrible, horrible, horrible and I don't blame you one bit for being disillusioned with your forebears.

Today I came across an article on the churches Danite Hitmen. I hope there isn't a list anywhere because I just don't want to know if there any more SeeNoEvil relatives on it!

I hear you!