NOM

According to the latest FAIR newsletter, the frequent use of "And it came to pass" in the Book of Mormon is powerful evidence that the book was written by ancient Semitic writers. How's that, you ask?

The expression and it came to pass is the translation of a Hebrew expression used frequently in scriptural histories and chronologies and far less frequently in poetry, prophecies, or direct speech. Although in its Hebrew form the expression is found in the Hebrew Bible some 1,200 times, it was translated in the King James Version as "and it came to pass" only about 727 times. The King James translators probably found the expression redundant and cumbersome, which would explain why they often translated it as "and it became," "and it was," or "and."

So the fact that the BoM uses the whole phrase so many times (1476 times) shows that it is closer to an original Semitic text than is the Bible. Or maybe it shows that it was dictated by someone who thought it added an air of Biblishness, or who used the phrase as an "uh..." spacer while composing the next sentence in his head.

Strange that reformed Egyptian supported semitic grammar and idiom so well

dogbite wrote: ↑Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:25 pm Strange that reformed Egyptian supported semitic grammar and idiom so well

Agreed. Quite strange.

Mark Twain said it best:

The book seems to be merely a prosy detail of imaginary history, with the Old Testament for a model; followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament. The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint, old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James's translation of the Scriptures; and the result is a mongrel--half modern glibness, and half ancient simplicity and gravity. The latter is awkward and constrained; the former natural, but grotesque by the contrast. Whenever he found his speech growing too modern--which was about every sentence or two—he ladled in a few such Scriptural phrases as "exceeding sore," "and it came to pass," etc., and made things satisfactory again. "And it came to pass" was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet.

Roughing It – Chapter 16, pages 107-115

Hagoth wrote: ↑Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:10 pm According to the latest FAIR newsletter, the frequent use of "And it came to pass" in the Book of Mormon is powerful evidence that the book was written by ancient Semitic writers.

Apologists are grasping at straws, trying to make anything stick!! Frequent use of "and it came to pass" or "chaismus" is NOT proof or evidence of ancient or hebrew origins. It can be as simple as the author of the book wants the book to sound Biblical or ancient.

There was a whole genre of books in the early 1800s written in the Biblical style. A good example is "The Late War Between the United States and Great Britain", a scriptural style account of the War of 1812 published in New York in 1816. See https://wordtreefoundation.github.io/thelatewar/ "and it came to pass" was frequently used in this book, See the section in the link "and it came to pass"

"Between 1817 and 1819 "The Late War Between the United States and Great Britain" was marketed "for the use of schools throughout the United States" under the title "The Historical Reader"."

Emma Hale, Oliver Cowdrey, and Joseph Smith Senior had all been school teachers. The church claims Joseph Smith was uneducated which is not really true, he was home schooled by both his mother and father, and well versed in the Bible. Oliver was well educated. "The Late War Between the United States and Great Britain" was most certainly in Joseph's and/or Oliver's environment at the time they were growing up or teaching school.

Writing in a Biblical style was a well known literary device at the time the BoM was composed.

The record was an abridgement of records the supposed authors had difficulty fitting onto small metal plates.

If the actual author had wanted to make it ancient, meaning consistent with his story, it wouldn't be so incredibly wordy and filled with unnecessary redundancy, repetition, and, of course, "it came to pass". Even as a TBM I wondered why, if they were writing on plates and trying to be brief, did they repeat things so many times. It's like, "yeah, we got it already". I guess if you're Joe you don't want your new bible to look too small and insignificant.

Apologists are really not thinking this through. Using "And it came to pass" as evidence for Book of Mormon authenticity is functionally the same as Elven poetry as evidence for "Lord of the Rings" authenticity. Actually, Professor Tolkien was unintentionally channeling the ancient Maiar spirits who had him write down the true history of Arda. Since the start of the fourth age of Men we have forgotten the glorious tales from before the Eldar departed the Grey Havens for the blessed realm. No other evidence of the War of the Ring remains, but we do have this Elven poetry which has the hints of the historicity of Gandalf, Frodo, and Aragorn.

The funny thing with all these linguistic arguments? Joseph Smith did *not* translate from the plates, he did not translate a reformed Egyptian text. He received it via rock in hat. This means if something is present in the Book of Mormon even according to the Mormon narrative that means god decided to transmit it in that manner. It means absolutely nothing as to the original text because the Book of Mormon is not based off a translation of a historical document even if the golden plates were a historical document.

Dravin wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:44 am The funny thing with all these linguistic arguments? Joseph Smith did *not* translate from the plates, he did not translate a reformed Egyptian text. He received it via rock in hat.

Yep, this is how it happened. Plus, Duane Johnson would play a fantastic Captain Moroni. "And it came to pass that Book of Mormon authenticity was assured after the Rock, even Duane Johnson, did wear a hat and did look awesome."

It also had to be a fake language so that Joseph could use the only tool he had which was magical scrying. Had it been written in Hebrew there were too many people who could read Hebrew. Further it can be dated by the style of Hebrew and even the formation of the characters. Joseph would have to price his competency to people who could validate the claim. The only way it can be special and make Joseph special is for the language to be unkowable to anyone else.

Hebrew was well developed at the time of the BoM and compact enough to the purpose given the claimed size of the plates. There was no reason to go to reformed Egyptian except to give Joseph a dodge for his claim / con. It's actually suspicious to make the claim of necessity for reformed Egyptian.

And it came to pass, LDS apologists began to wonder if Hebrew usage of 'it came to pass' was important... (this is an authentic post, from the original Hebrew, in case anyone is wondering, because I used 'and it came to pass' ).

More seriously, are these apologists not aware this is a key phrase in the NT, which is from the Greek? Just for fun, I ran a phrase search on Bible Gateway.

"and it came to pass" occurs 65 times in the New Testament, including the beginning of the story of the birth of Christ:

Luke 2King James Version (KJV)
2 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.

Being from the Greek, I assume this phrase is an attempt by the original NT authors or KJV translators to sound scriptural and OT-like. Unless this is also a common Greek phrase (anyone know?).

Anyway, 'and it came to pass' is very important in the NT, which was not written in Hebrew, and the inclusion of the phrase in the BoM might simply have been a way to support a central theme of the book, the idea that the Nephites were NT type Christians.

Here is some evidence, looking at some of the instances of the phrase from the Bible Gateway, I am struck by how many uses are directly associated with Jesus. If the BoM author was trying to become a powerful Christian minister, that type of person may have simply noticed this association, maybe even subconsciously, and therefore wanted to use 'and it came to pass' as a type of signal that this is a book about Jesus.

Here are some examples where 'and it came to pass' are close to the words Jesus or He (where He = Jesus):

Matthew 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

Matthew 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.

Matthew 11:1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.

Matthew 13:53 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence.

Matthew 19:1 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these sayings, he departed from Galilee, and came into the coasts of Judaea beyond Jordan;

Matthew 26:1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples,

Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

Mark 2:15 And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.

Mark 2:23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.

Luke 5:12 And it came to pass, when he was in a certain city, behold a man full of leprosy: who seeing Jesus fell on his face, and besought him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Luke 5:17 And it came to pass on a certain day, as he was teaching, that there were Pharisees and doctors of the law sitting by, which were come out of every town of Galilee, and Judaea, and Jerusalem: and the power of the Lord was present to heal them.

Luke 6:1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.

Luke 6:6 And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.

Luke 6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.

Luke 7:11 And it came to pass the day after, that he went into a city called Nain; and many of his disciples went with him, and much people.

...and there are many more examples in the NT... Here is the search link, check them out for yourself:
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearc ... &limit=100

What did this phrase really mean to the BoM author, and what point was he trying to make with its usage? I think Most mormons do not really think about Biblical Christianity the way the rest of the Christian world does. So it is not surprising that the LDS apologists are over-focused on the Hebrew and OT as they wonder about the use of 'and it came to pass' in the BoM.

But I think the goal of the author was to create the ambiance of the NT, to present the Nephites as Christians. The BoM author, being focused on the NT, could have easily been captured by this phrase in an NT type of context.

EternityIsNow wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:26 pm More seriously, are these apologists not aware this is a key phrase in the NT, which is from the Greek? Just for fun, I ran a phrase search on Bible Gateway.

"and it came to pass" occurs 65 times in the New Testament, including the beginning of the story of the birth of Christ:

That is an excellent observation, EIN. Thanks for pointing that out.

dogbite wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:11 am
Hebrew was well developed at the time of the BoM and compact enough to the purpose given the claimed size of the plates. There was no reason to go to reformed Egyptian except to give Joseph a dodge for his claim / con. It's actually suspicious to make the claim of necessity for reformed Egyptian.

The standard apologetic response is that there is a single Mayan character that translates to "and it came to pass," but they will never stick their heads out far enough to say it was actually written in Mayan, which, like Egyptian, would only have added bulk. The art of apologetics is only showing one piece of a puzzle at a time and never letting you see that none of them fit together.

Find me the phrase "probationary state" in any hebrew writings and I'll be impressed. I can only find it repeatedly in Hopkinsian magazine sermon 1824. This whole sermon reads like Alma.

https://books.google.com/books?id=7dkOA ... an&f=false

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:00 am

dogbite wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:11 am
Hebrew was well developed at the time of the BoM and compact enough to the purpose given the claimed size of the plates. There was no reason to go to reformed Egyptian except to give Joseph a dodge for his claim / con. It's actually suspicious to make the claim of necessity for reformed Egyptian.

The standard apologetic response is that there is a single Mayan character that translates to "and it came to pass," but they will never stick their heads out far enough to say it was actually written in Mayan, which, like Egyptian, would only have added bulk. The art of apologetics is only showing one piece of a puzzle at a time and never letting you see that none of them fit together.

So does the earlier German translation of the Book of Mormon. To save space money they just put a character in everywhere that it occurred as they didn't have to print Und es begab sich.

Corsair wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:01 am Yep, this is how it happened. Plus, Duane Johnson would play a fantastic Captain Moroni. "And it came to pass that Book of Mormon authenticity was assured after the Rock, even Duane Johnson, did wear a hat and did look awesome."

Honestly, I'd pay money watching a Book of Mormon movie staring Dwayne Johnson. Better if you use the device of him reading the Book of Mormon with the missionaries you can have him liken himself to key roles so we needn't limit him to only one character. You can even have side commentary ala Princes Bride during the scenes.

Who doesn't want to see:

• Dwayne 'of Goodly Parents' Johnson smiting off Laban's head.
• Dwayne 'the Younger' Johnson pairing up with Zeezrom to watch a bonfire of women and children.
• Dwayne 'the Shepard' Johnson smiting off arms while tending sheep.
• Dwayne 'I'll be your Daddy' Johnson commanding stripling warriors.
• Dwayne 'the Kingslayer' Johnson putting a javelin through Amalickiah heart.
• Dwayne 'the Captain' Johnson putting Kingsmen to the sword.
• Dwayne 'the Lamanite' standing upon a city wall preaching.
• Dwayne 'the Personal Trainer' Johnson making Shiz do push ups.
• Dwayne 'the Lamenter Johnson' participating in the grand final battles of the Nephites

Dravin wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:16 am Dwayne 'the Personal Trainer' Johnson making Shiz do push ups.

My favorite, by far! Hahahaha! Headless pushups at that!

The expression and it came to pass is the translation of a Hebrew expression used frequently in scriptural histories and chronologies...

Inquiring minds want to know: What are the "Hebrew roots" of the word adieu?

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:18 am Find me the phrase "probationary state" in any hebrew writings and I'll be impressed. I can only find it repeatedly in Hopkinsian magazine sermon 1824. This whole sermon reads like Alma.

Interesting.

Here's how the word probation is distributed in a scripture search on LDS.com:
Old Testament (0)
New Testament (0)
Book of Mormon (9)
Doctrine and Covenants (1)
Pearl of Great Price (0)
Study Helps (50)

And Probationary:
Old Testament (0)
New Testament (0)
Book of Mormon (4)
Doctrine and Covenants (0)
Pearl of Great Price (0)
Study Helps (17)

Each instance of probationary is followed by the word state (3 instances) or time (1 instance). It's obviously a concept that the authors of the Study Helps really latched onto.

It would help if we had the original text. But we do have the original text; I bought a facsimile for $25 from Nauvoo. It's written in nineteenth-century yokel English trying to sound biblical.