NOM

I am getting kind of tired of all the attitudes I see flying around Facebook and Reddit the last couple days. I get it, I am as unhappy with the church as the next guy. But damn we are jumping all over the church about this situation.

Why didn't it prophesy about this---you know as well as I why they didn't...
Why don't they open up the chapels!? ---well they did.
Why don't they send all the missionaries in North America to help?!--- really, you're going to go there?
Why did they ask for prayers for the temple and not for people?! --- well maybe they thought your prayers for people were a given. I would.
Why did the mission president deny phone calls for missionaries?! --- I will give you that, that was a dick move...
Why don't they respond faster?! ---jeez, it's starting to sound like you are just irrationally angry...
Why is someone's RS coordinating donations to replace wardrobes when there are so many other need right now!? ---why the heck not? If someone wants to provide this service let em do it without our judgement!

Am I just being too easy on an organization and people that are usually pretty thoughtless?

I agree and not just the from the ex-mo community, but people like the Tampa professor and Ann Coulter. It is a hurricane and they are devastating, end of story.

One thing that did annoy me was the church's call for volunteers, but no females. I, as a woman, am just as capable of hauling debris as anyone. But, that's just me.

HighMaintenance wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:59 pm
One thing that did annoy me was the church's call for volunteers, but no females. I, as a woman, am just as capable of hauling debris as anyone. But, that's just me.

Really, they said no females? *facepalm*

My thoughts, as well. And they should let women help.

Yeah, not a fan of the yellow shirts, or treating women like fragile princesses, but clearly the church is/will be helping out a great deal for Houston, just like they did for Katrina and a host of other things. There's enough to complain about the corporation without nitpicking HOW they respond to a crisis; they could do nothing, and then there'd be lots to pick apart. I'll donate a few shekels from the Great White North to help out with this disaster, which this clearly is, and I don't mind having it pass through the church's hands on this one. We have family in Houston, and we're glad they're safe.

Gloating over a flooded temple is not my style. I'll focus my attention, money and prayers on the (largely) poor people who have been flooded out of their homes. I'm sure the Jesus I read about would feel the same.

Emower wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:45 pm

HighMaintenance wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:59 pm
One thing that did annoy me was the church's call for volunteers, but no females. I, as a woman, am just as capable of hauling debris as anyone. But, that's just me.

Really, they said no females? *facepalm*

As discussed here: https://redd.it/6wrq0b

The church is not a first response organization. From my experience, they are always slow at the offset because of their structure. The bottom of the hierarchy is paralyzed because they're waiting for instructions from the top. The top is paralyzed because they need information from the bottom. Also, since everyone wants to operate within the existing command structure like Elder -> EQP -> Bishop -> SP, problems occur when the person with the "authority" is unable to do help. If the people who are available aren't int he right positions, then they have no ability to self organize.

In a couple of weeks these communication problems will smooth out and working groups will form. At that point, the church is pretty effective and will provide a steady stream of labor for months.

oliver_denom wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:32 am The church is not a first response organization. From my experience, they are always slow at the offset because of their structure. The bottom of the hierarchy is paralyzed because they're waiting for instructions from the top. The top is paralyzed because they need information from the bottom. Also, since everyone wants to operate within the existing command structure like Elder -> EQP -> Bishop -> SP, problems occur when the person with the "authority" is unable to do help. If the people who are available aren't int he right positions, then they have no ability to self organize.

This!

I was on the emergency prep for a few years and all these disaster related cleanup things are always coordinated and commanded via the priesthood authorities. First we get the reports from the block captains and HTs...maybe the VTs. Then we meet at the church for donuts and get organized, then we head out and cleanup and report back.

I'm not dissing the church's structural ability to get organized and get things done, but there is a lot of links in the chain that generally leave out our female friends. The old patriarchal male way of doing things is getting old in our modern society. There are just as many capable women who can be even more organized and efficient than the men.

Mormorrisey wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:13 am Yeah, not a fan of the yellow shirts, or treating women like fragile princesses, but clearly the church is/will be helping out a great deal for Houston, just like they did for Katrina and a host of other things. There's enough to complain about the corporation without nitpicking HOW they respond to a crisis; they could do nothing, and then there'd be lots to pick apart. I'll donate a few shekels from the Great White North to help out with this disaster, which this clearly is, and I don't mind having it pass through the church's hands on this one. We have family in Houston, and we're glad they're safe.

Gloating over a flooded temple is not my style. I'll focus my attention, money and prayers on the (largely) poor people who have been flooded out of their homes. I'm sure the Jesus I read about would feel the same.

Totes. I feel sometimes that the exmo group as a whole is just as much a rabid mob as the tbm members fear.

oliver_denom wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:32 am The church is not a first response organization. From my experience, they are always slow at the offset because of their structure. The bottom of the hierarchy is paralyzed because they're waiting for instructions from the top. The top is paralyzed because they need information from the bottom. Also, since everyone wants to operate within the existing command structure like Elder -> EQP -> Bishop -> SP, problems occur when the person with the "authority" is unable to do help. If the people who are available aren't int he right positions, then they have no ability to self organize.

In a couple of weeks these communication problems will smooth out and working groups will form. At that point, the church is pretty effective and will provide a steady stream of labor for months.

Interesting take. I didnt think about the roadblocks at both ends of the hierarchy. I went to help after a hurricane in Louisiana one time. It was late in the game when I showed up, and the church was in full swing. It was still a little hectic, but quite effective at that point. It was kind of fun to help people that were grateful for anything.

Emower wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:44 am Interesting take. I didnt think about the roadblocks at both ends of the hierarchy. I went to help after a hurricane in Louisiana one time. It was late in the game when I showed up, and the church was in full swing. It was still a little hectic, but quite effective at that point. It was kind of fun to help people that were grateful for anything.

I was there for that too, but we were assigned Pascagoula. It's an experience I'll never forget. I don't envy the work ahead at all.

oliver_denom wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:46 am

Emower wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:44 am Interesting take. I didnt think about the roadblocks at both ends of the hierarchy. I went to help after a hurricane in Louisiana one time. It was late in the game when I showed up, and the church was in full swing. It was still a little hectic, but quite effective at that point. It was kind of fun to help people that were grateful for anything.

I was there for that too, but we were assigned Pascagoula. It's an experience I'll never forget. I don't envy the work ahead at all.

I dont either, It was backbreaking work for the three days I was there. I was glad to go home to Starkville MS where I didnt have to confront the mess all the time. Then a tornado hit somewhere in central MS and the whole thing started again. I'm glad to not live in the land of floods and tornadoes anymore...

I have been involved in some of these same cleanup efforts. It's funny to think that I might have been unknowingly working right beside another NOM forum member.

I agree. I think overall, they really do want to do good, especially at a time like this. I have family who works at the COB, and I've heard from them about other humanitarian projects that are never in the news, too. I don't want to disparage those efforts. The yellow shirts are a bit much, of course, and I still send my charitable dollars elsewhere due to lack of transparency, and the fact that my funds would likely be used for things I disagree with.

Emower wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:04 pm I am getting kind of tired of all the attitudes I see flying around Facebook and Reddit the last couple days. I get it, I am as unhappy with the church as the next guy. But damn we are jumping all over the church about this situation.

Why didn't it prophesy about this---you know as well as I why they didn't...
Why don't they open up the chapels!? ---well they did.
Why don't they send all the missionaries in North America to help?!--- really, you're going to go there?
Why did they ask for prayers for the temple and not for people?! --- well maybe they thought your prayers for people were a given. I would.
Why did the mission president deny phone calls for missionaries?! --- I will give you that, that was a dick move...
Why don't they respond faster?! ---jeez, it's starting to sound like you are just irrationally angry...
Why is someone's RS coordinating donations to replace wardrobes when there are so many other need right now!? ---why the heck not? If someone wants to provide this service let em do it without our judgement!

Am I just being too easy on an organization and people that are usually pretty thoughtless?

I agree with you on this. There are plenty of things to criticize about the Church; this isn't one of them. Certain factions of the ex-mo crowd can be very vocal and overly critical.

Stig wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:13 am I agree with you on this. There are plenty of things to criticize about the Church; this isn't one of them. Certain factions of the ex-mo crowd can be very vocal and overly critical.

There's a real ebb and flow with r/exmormon. Disaffection seems to fall along a predictable path, and right at the beginning, some folks are rightly pissed off. Whenever there's a critical mass of people in that stage, I think the sub becomes more toxic, less contemplative, more reactive. Give it time though and those people will start progressing and it will go through a more reflective phase.

If someone were to do the work, then we might be able to track the waves of ex-mormonism on that sub which correlate to actions from the church that really pushed people out. For example, after proposition 8 or after the November policy, Rough Stone Rolling, the essays, or document leaks. The bigger the push back, the greater you can expect newly minted ex-mormons to show up in greater numbers. If I'm not mistaken, they've had a large spike in membership since the beginning of the year.

I do want to have the correct expectations for the LDS church or any other church. Being a first responder to large, immediate disasters is not a job requirement for any church nor is it implied from the words of the Savior, Himself. The real problem is that the LDS church does not have a systematic doctrine of what a prophet is expected to do or even what a prophet is expected to never do.

It's not that we have to expect that the modern prophet will necessarily see and proclaim the future events of this world. Nor do we expect the prophet to talk openly about meeting Jesus even though believers inherently "know" that the Lord spake unto Monson face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

I don't expect LDS prophets to always act like they see all events before they occur. The problem is that they consistently act like every other organization and react and adapt as best as they can. Show me the unique fingerprint of being prophets, seers, and revelators, not just another well funded corporation that wants to help people, but does move slowly. Showing up to help with the cleanup once the floodwaters recede is great. But a bunch of sacred and secular organizations will also do that. It does not make the LDS church true, it simply makes it one more helpful organization in a very human way.

Corsair wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am It's not that we have to expect that the modern prophet will necessarily see and proclaim the future events of this world. Nor do we expect the prophet to talk openly about meeting Jesus even though believers inherently "know" that the Lord spake unto Monson face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

I don't expect LDS prophets to always act like they see all events before they occur. The problem is that they consistently act like every other organization and react and adapt as best as they can.

This is a difficult contradiction to wrestle with. On one hand, prophets are just normal human beings with all their flaws and failings. They make mistakes, they suffer from bias, get sick, die, and admittedly have just as much priesthood or "power" as anyone else with faith. But on the other hand, they teach members that they are prophets and apostles exactly as described in the scriptures, allow people to assume they speak directly with god face to face, tell people to follow and obey them as if god himself, to treat their words as scripture, and that its impossible for a prophet to lead anyone astray. To be a good latter-day saint requires one to engage in this double-think where both sets of criteria are true at the same time, even though they contradict. Thus you get the rationalization that sometimes they speak as prophets and other times as men, yet there's no way to tell which is which until well after the fact.

A large part of those failed expectations, like predicting the future or expecting the church to be more than a human run institution, are caused by the church's own teachings and expectations. When times are good, the church expects me to obey and listen to the leadership as if they are the infallible figureheads of god. But when times are bad, meaning that something they did something which didn't pan out, they expect to be treated as regular Joes just trying to do their best.

The dichotomy, the two sides of this double-think, is just an elaborate way to express the idea of "heads I win, tails you lose".

Corsair wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am I do want to have the correct expectations for the LDS church or any other church. Being a first responder to large, immediate disasters is not a job requirement for any church nor is it implied from the words of the Savior, Himself. The real problem is that the LDS church does not have a systematic doctrine of what a prophet is expected to do or even what a prophet is expected to never do.

It's not that we have to expect that the modern prophet will necessarily see and proclaim the future events of this world. Nor do we expect the prophet to talk openly about meeting Jesus even though believers inherently "know" that the Lord spake unto Monson face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

I don't expect LDS prophets to always act like they see all events before they occur. The problem is that they consistently act like every other organization and react and adapt as best as they can. Show me the unique fingerprint of being prophets, seers, and revelators, not just another well funded corporation that wants to help people, but does move slowly. Showing up to help with the cleanup once the floodwaters recede is great. But a bunch of sacred and secular organizations will also do that. It does not make the LDS church true, it simply makes it one more helpful organization in a very human way.

This is an excellent observation. Still, I can't help but wonder why it is God has so much time to help Brother Johnson find his keys, but can't give his anointed Prophet, Seer, and Revelator the occasional heads-up to a huge disaster that measures its cost in lives. Does finding keys really just take all that time?

Twitter is much faster and more effective than the Holy Ghost.

Here is my prophecy:

1. Houston is built on top of bayous/wetlands
2. Houston is at sea level
3. Lots of storms come up from the Gulf every year
4. Sea level is rising worldwide
5. Don't build your damn house there, it's gonna get flooded! It's a statistical guarantee!

Now I know the average Jane and Joe doesn't have a whole lot of say where they live...

I'm glad the Church is able to mobilize it's supplies fairly quickly. And that it has them.

I hate the shirts. It's kind of a "trumpeting your gift in the market" thing. Not my style.

You gotta love those Cajun Navy folks...