NOM

During SS, our RS Pres talked about the need to create an atmosphere where people can ask questions and express doubt without being labeled apostates or being judged. She also said that Mormons call a lot of things doctrine that are really culture. Which I agreed with but then the example she gave bummed me out. She also gave three criteria for doctrine: pertains to the eternities, all the 12 and presidency preach it consistently and....can't remember arg!

I did speak up and said there is a spectrum to belief and understanding and we should be welcoming for all. The SS Pres piped right up and said yes we need to have open conversations to see where people are on the spectrum...so we can correct them and ensure that everyone has consistent understanding of what is doctrine and what isn't. I didn't mind the last part-boy do we all believe things differently-would have just preferred we listen to understand and for empathy not to correct.....

Walked right into RS and heard that there is nothing worse than cafeteria Mormons. That being Mormon is all or nothing and faith and belief are a "choice". So if you don't choose to believe, you're taking the easy road to cynicism and skepticism (thanks uchtdorf) and it's the path for the weak.

I mostly find church exhausting and disappointing right now. Wish I was korihor!

anon70 wrote:I mostly find church exhausting and disappointing right now. Wish I was korihor!

That's tough to sit through.

All I heard today was a returned missionary say if you're not with Christ, then by default you're with the adversary.

I leaned over and whispered in my teenage daughters ear, "what if you're Buddhist?" She whispered back, "then you're fat and happy!" I mentally checked out after that and started to look around to see how many people looked bored.

I skipped the last 2 hours which really helps reduce the mental frustration.

If you can't skip, take a book to read on your iPad or similar device. Nobody will notice you're not paying attention.

Yep. My SS class was the martyrdom of Joseph Smith which was far more about the spiritual experiences class members have had while visiting Carthage Jail recently. The instructor made a point to emphasize that we don't worship Joseph Smith but did go over a hagiography of accomplishments of Joseph Smith. This included his founding of Relief Society which was further described as the world's first religious organization headed by women and which is still the largest in the world. I should have headed out for Starbucks at this point. Mentioning Catholic Nuns or Vestal Virgins was not going to help change the mind of a group of believers at that point.

I am reevaluating my continuing attendance.

Anon70 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:05 pm I mostly find church exhausting and disappointing right now. Wish I was korihor!

The grass is always greener... yet you do not see the massive pile of 'manure' in the backyard.

While I am lucky to avoid attending on a weekly basis and other churchy stuff, I would instantly trade and go back if it would get rid of the manure in the backyard.

Corsair wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:59 am Yep. My SS class was the martyrdom of Joseph Smith which was far more about the spiritual experiences class members have had while visiting Carthage Jail recently. The instructor made a point to emphasize that we don't worship Joseph Smith but did go over a hagiography of accomplishments of Joseph Smith. This included his founding of Relief Society which was further described as the world's first religious organization headed by women and which is still the largest in the world. I should have headed out for Starbucks at this point. Mentioning Catholic Nuns or Vestal Virgins was not going to help change the mind of a group of believers at that point.

I am reevaluating my continuing attendance.

Except it's not.

But where will you go?

Korihor wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:09 am

Corsair wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:59 am Yep. My SS class was the martyrdom of Joseph Smith which was far more about the spiritual experiences class members have had while visiting Carthage Jail recently. The instructor made a point to emphasize that we don't worship Joseph Smith but did go over a hagiography of accomplishments of Joseph Smith. This included his founding of Relief Society which was further described as the world's first religious organization headed by women and which is still the largest in the world. I should have headed out for Starbucks at this point. Mentioning Catholic Nuns or Vestal Virgins was not going to help change the mind of a group of believers at that point.

I am reevaluating my continuing attendance.

Except it's not.

I have a TBM friend that was also quite bothered by this claim and similarly did not think that disrupting the flow of class. The central problem is that Gospel Doctrine class is not actually a place for discussion or critique. It is for LDS religious instruction, not real understanding or exploration of issues. I would have happily had a friendly discussion about the issues, but that is simply not what church is for.

Korihor wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:09 am But where will you go?

Probably Starbucks.

Corsair wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:59 am Yep. My SS class was the martyrdom of Joseph Smith which was far more about the spiritual experiences class members have had while visiting Carthage Jail recently. The instructor made a point to emphasize that we don't worship Joseph Smith but did go over a hagiography of accomplishments of Joseph Smith. This included his founding of Relief Society which was further described as the world's first religious organization headed by women and which is still the largest in the world. I should have headed out for Starbucks at this point. Mentioning Catholic Nuns or Vestal Virgins was not going to help change the mind of a group of believers at that point.

I am reevaluating my continuing attendance.

I went last week because it was D&C132 and this week because it was the martyrdom. I made waves last week so I was quiet this week. The instructor said something about how some people put Joseph on a pedestal with Jesus. He said that that was a little inappropriate, but that he was the second best man to have lived on this earth. I really wanted to bust out the quote where Joseph said he was better than Jesus, but I stayed quiet....

Corsair wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:59 am Yep. My SS class was the martyrdom of Joseph Smith which was far more about the spiritual experiences class members have had while visiting Carthage Jail recently. The instructor made a point to emphasize that we don't worship Joseph Smith but did go over a hagiography of accomplishments of Joseph Smith. This included his founding of Relief Society which was further described as the world's first religious organization headed by women and which is still the largest in the world. I should have headed out for Starbucks at this point. Mentioning Catholic Nuns or Vestal Virgins was not going to help change the mind of a group of believers at that point.

noun: worship

• the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.
• the acts or rites that make up a formal expression of reverence for a deity; a religious ceremony or ceremonies.
• adoration or devotion comparable to religious homage, shown toward a person or principle.

They don't worship Joseph Smith? That may be technically true, because they claim he talked to god and not that he is god, but that's not true in practice. First off, ask anyone if Joseph Smith has earned the status of being a God and if they're being honest they'll say yes. Second, what do you call it when his name is mentioned next to Jesus Christ in every prayer and testimony? What do you call it when you see more images of Joseph Smith hanging up in the ward building than Jesus, and that you can attend an entire 3 hour block without discussing God or Christ a single time, but that's highly unlikely to happen with Smith? Even more common, I'll bet you a fat man you could sit through a 3 hour block and only hear God when referring to something Smith said or did.

Absolutely Joseph Smith is worshiped. They won't call it that, but that's what it looks like in practice, and the same thing is done with living people. You'd be hard pressed to find people falling all over themselves like folks do with apostles outside teenage girls at a boy band concert.