Piping up in SS

[ulmite]

So I am in a ward now where I will not be long-term, so I can safely burn any bridges I want to
After today, I am probably outed as a dangerous quasi-apostate, and so I will probably just make a habit of popping out heresy for my last two weeks in the ward. Let me know what you think about it.

The last two GD lessons have been the much-commented "Be Not Deceived" and the normally boring one about the priesthood.
moksha was a role model in formatting this epic post.

Prologue
ulmite was there close to the front row, wearing a patterned shirt without a tie and bright colored pants.

Part the First : of milk and of fire

Q : How can we not be decieved?
A (by ulmite) : Critical thinking!

I spoke up after the milk strippings story was read, and said that actually, Thomas Marsh probably left for another reason. People were scared of the mormons, and fought them, and the mormons fought back. Marsh left after a group of mormons burned down a town because he felt like the violence was not worthy of the true church.
The teacher had read about it on the ldshistory page, and had that version of events that skew quite a bit towards Marsh=bad because extermination order.
I didn't argue any more, or say anything else.

Part the Second : An Unexpected Journey
This was close to being the best SS lesson I have ever had. The teacher (another guy this time) decided to address the issue head-on and

(*hold your hats, people*)

within the first minute had written Ordain Women on the board, and then explained to us that he had gone to their website, and read their arguments, and explained that the movement wants the priesthood mainly so women can be part of the hierarchy and not as much to perform ordinances. And then he tells us that there is no good reason for that not to happen, except Jesus says. Another 5 minutes of his carefully thought-out explanations about the issue, and he turns out to support the brethren, but has a very clear picture of what Ordain Women is and is probably experiencing quite a bit of cog.dis.
[insert a 20 minute condensation of the lesson from the manual, mentioning throughout that women do have the priesthood, so this does apply to them]

Then a short discussion where everyone agrees that God will make it so that a single mother with a sick child praying will be as powerful as the missing dad giving a blessing.

Then I asked my sticky question : if the priesthood is given to everyone anyway, and it is not really important because God will fix stuff, why not just give women the priesthood?
I deemed this more important than opening up race and the priesthood (despite the teacher mentioning that women historically helped do some blessings), and safer than going into a debate about whether or not the Church really is led by Jesus 24/7 or does sometimes make mistakes.

Part the Third : Fallout

t~0s : immediate increase in volume as whispers erupt. I think they recognize the critically thinking bright pants from last week's disturbance.
t~5s : An answer : "but women do have the priesthood, I just said so" to be unkind, a repetition of what he had explained before already covering the issue to be kind.
t~20s : I repeat the question with slightly different phrasing because he didn't answer my question
t~7min : I decide not to add more fuel to the fire by asking whether or not JS would have given to priesthood to blacks and women had he been born in the year 2000.
t~10min : the end of the lesson, the rest was spent with people echoing the mainstream viewpoint, and probably one NOM-ish person failing to make herself understood, like me.
t~12min : I go and apologize to the teacher for giving him a rough time, saying that it is just an issue I care very much about.
t~13min : I go and play Grieg's piano sonata on the chapel piano.
t~30min : someone comes and tells me that he did not think that my question was adequately answered, says he had been talking about it with some other people, and wanted to recognize that. We talk a bit more, it turns out that we are both NOMs as far as Ordain Women and race and the priesthood are concerned.

Epilogue
On to Schubert.

[crossmyheart]

Thanks for sharing. I truly wish I had the guts to speak up more.

[Mormorrisey]

Good for you! As I said in another post, I bailed. Best thing for me yesterday.

But I applaud your bravery.

[Corsair]

That was great! Let us know when your script becomes an HBO miniseries.

[AllieOop]

t~7min : I decide not to add more fuel to the fire by asking whether or not JS would have given to priesthood to blacks and women had he been born in the year 2000.

I loved reading your entire post....good for you! I wish I could have been there

I also wanted to point out that JS did give the priesthood to blacks (or at least sanctioned their ordination). So maybe if you have the chance, you could mention this in future lessons on this topic. I've found that most church members aren't aware of this fact.

[Guy]

Very interesting. Enjoyed reading your post!

I've been having very similar discussions with my HT's. Both are believers, but choose to be while still having issues with some aspects the historical doctrine that was practiced and preached in the early times - including the Blacks and the Priesthood issue. Funny thing is, both view it as a non-issue when it comes to believing in the core tenants of the Church (salvation plan, repentance, etc). A common snippet from them would be something like... "it doesn't matter if the priesthood ban was wrong, I still believe in the plan of salvation".

[MoPag]

Nicely Done Ulmite!

Cheers.png (229.14 KiB) Viewed 6369 times

And good job on returning and reporting.

[2bizE]

I love this type of post. I stew through GD every time I go...I ask similar questions and am always amazed at how ill informed the general members are...

[ulmite]

t~7min : I decide not to add more fuel to the fire by asking whether or not JS would have given to priesthood to blacks and women had he been born in the year 2000.

I loved reading your entire post....good for you! I wish I could have been there

I also wanted to point out that JS did give the priesthood to blacks (or at least sanctioned their ordination). So maybe if you have the chance, you could mention this in future lessons on this topic. I've found that most church members aren't aware of this fact.

Yes, I was tempted to bring up this parallel when the fact that women had participated in blessings was mentioned, but I chose not to distract with another issue.

[moksha]

It would be really nice if people with concerns about "truthiness" could speak up in tandem in SS, to prevent the solitary questioner in the crowd from being shouted down or marginalized.

[Anon70]

Every now and then someone will say something in RS or SS to make me think they're a NOM but then they quickly follow up with a TBM testimony and I'm soooo disappointed to not have found an IRL NOM friend.

[Thoughtful]

So I am in a ward now where I will not be long-term, so I can safely burn any bridges I want to
After today, I am probably outed as a dangerous quasi-apostate, and so I will probably just make a habit of popping out heresy for my last two weeks in the ward. Let me know what you think about it.

The last two GD lessons have been the much-commented "Be Not Deceived" and the normally boring one about the priesthood.
moksha was a role model in formatting this epic post.

Prologue
ulmite was there close to the front row, wearing a patterned shirt without a tie and bright colored pants.

Part the First : of milk and of fire

Q : How can we not be decieved?
A (by ulmite) : Critical thinking!

I spoke up after the milk strippings story was read, and said that actually, Thomas Marsh probably left for another reason. People were scared of the mormons, and fought them, and the mormons fought back. Marsh left after a group of mormons burned down a town because he felt like the violence was not worthy of the true church.
The teacher had read about it on the ldshistory page, and had that version of events that skew quite a bit towards Marsh=bad because extermination order.
I didn't argue any more, or say anything else.

Part the Second : An Unexpected Journey
This was close to being the best SS lesson I have ever had. The teacher (another guy this time) decided to address the issue head-on and

(*hold your hats, people*)

within the first minute had written Ordain Women on the board, and then explained to us that he had gone to their website, and read their arguments, and explained that the movement wants the priesthood mainly so women can be part of the hierarchy and not as much to perform ordinances. And then he tells us that there is no good reason for that not to happen, except Jesus says. Another 5 minutes of his carefully thought-out explanations about the issue, and he turns out to support the brethren, but has a very clear picture of what Ordain Women is and is probably experiencing quite a bit of cog.dis.
[insert a 20 minute condensation of the lesson from the manual, mentioning throughout that women do have the priesthood, so this does apply to them]

Then a short discussion where everyone agrees that God will make it so that a single mother with a sick child praying will be as powerful as the missing dad giving a blessing.

Then I asked my sticky question : if the priesthood is given to everyone anyway, and it is not really important because God will fix stuff, why not just give women the priesthood?
I deemed this more important than opening up race and the priesthood (despite the teacher mentioning that women historically helped do some blessings), and safer than going into a debate about whether or not the Church really is led by Jesus 24/7 or does sometimes make mistakes.

Part the Third : Fallout

t~0s : immediate increase in volume as whispers erupt. I think they recognize the critically thinking bright pants from last week's disturbance.
t~5s : An answer : "but women do have the priesthood, I just said so" to be unkind, a repetition of what he had explained before already covering the issue to be kind.
t~20s : I repeat the question with slightly different phrasing because he didn't answer my question
t~7min : I decide not to add more fuel to the fire by asking whether or not JS would have given to priesthood to blacks and women had he been born in the year 2000.
t~10min : the end of the lesson, the rest was spent with people echoing the mainstream viewpoint, and probably one NOM-ish person failing to make herself understood, like me.
t~12min : I go and apologize to the teacher for giving him a rough time, saying that it is just an issue I care very much about.
t~13min : I go and play Grieg's piano sonata on the chapel piano.
t~30min : someone comes and tells me that he did not think that my question was adequately answered, says he had been talking about it with some other people, and wanted to recognize that. We talk a bit more, it turns out that we are both NOMs as far as Ordain Women and race and the priesthood are concerned.

Epilogue
On to Schubert.

Holy crap. Are you in my ward? I was absent the Thomas Marsh lesson and if you're who I think you may be I did not know you play piano... your priesthood SS lesson and the fallout is eerily similar to the one my spouseman taught.