What's wrong with my shoulders?

[MerrieMiss]

I recently went on a short vacation, just the husband and me. I brought a sleeveless shirt from my pre-endowment days that I had found and wore it as well as a sleeveless sundress. Both of these items of clothing were sleeveless - not spaghetti straps or strapless, just sleeveless, as in another half inch of fabric would have made them cap sleeves.

When we left I was wearing the shirt and he asked if I was really going to wear that. I said yes and not another word was said about it. His initial discomfort bothered me, but I put it behind me and we had a nice weekend. Later as we approached home, my husband asked if I needed to stop by the house before we picked up the kids from his sister's house. I said no, and he said maybe I did need to, so I could change my clothes. I was very direct. "Do I embarrass you? Are you ashamed of me?" He floundered and said something like, "No, well maybe a little, we need to talk about this." I then pointed out I had a sweater in the back seat that I was planning to wear so it was a non-issue. I asked if he wanted to talk about it then and there and we both decided it was a bad idea, but he said it was something we really need to address. I was in a bad mood for the rest of the way home (couple hours drive) and instead of going home I went to a summertime function I regularly volunteer at (which I had originally told them I was going to miss) because I didn't want to sit at home angry/upset with him and the kids.

At the time all I could think about is how hard it is to be close to someone (and I mean in a variety of ways, physically, emotionally, mentally) who is embarrassed by you. And it really is hard. But upon reflection I realized I was also nervous about this upcoming "talk" we may or may not have (he's very non-confrontational), because I felt like a little kid who got caught. I'm a grown woman, an adult. I didn't do anything wrong. I wore something very normal. I even had a sweater ready for the moment I would need one in front of his family. It did not make me feel like an adult, it infantilized me. For the record, he's a wonderful man, very kind and supportive, but a believing Mormon.

What I really want to know is this:

I want to understand where my husband is coming from. I don't get it. I would think a man, even a TBM, would want to see his wife in something attractive (I had several women, strangers, comment to me how much they liked my dress). Instead he seems ashamed. What is going on here? What man wants his wife to wear garments? And gets upset when you go on vacation a couple hundred miles away and wear sleeveless clothing? Am I carrying on a stereotype that men just want to see skin so bad so my husband won't mind me in a sleeveless shirt? Is he an anomaly? Is he simply conditioned to see mormon fashion as attractive? I'm so confused. I'm glad I passed up on the two-piece swimsuit and shorts. I can't imagine how the weekend would have gone had I done that.

[oliver_denom]

I think its important to remember that none of this has to do with his feelings toward you as an individual. It's the breaking of a taboo that he's freaked out about. My guess is that he would have reacted the exact same way if you were publicly carrying a cup of coffee or went to pick up the kids with a cigarette in your hand.

There is a lot of anxiety wrapped up in these things because they are symbols which signal whether or not your "in" the Mormon club. Being in the club is a big deal, but being out of the club is even bigger. To break one of these norms or taboos signals disobedience and brings up feelings of anxiety over being shunned, and its not like that isn't a possibility.

So, I would suggest that its this he freaked out over, the anxiety of being in such a passive aggressive high context culture where even the smallest social queues are enough to start people whispering and avoiding your presence. To be shunned from one's society is akin to the fear of death. I'm sure, on a personal level, he could never be ashamed or embarrassed by you, but he's been indoctrinated into the church and the fear and anxiety is involuntary. I haven't been a believer for a long time and I still feel anxiety / paranoia when missing church.

[Linked]

I thought this was going to be about shoulder pain you are having.

I totally understand the pain of being close to someone who is ashamed of the real you and feels pain anytime you are openly yourself. It is awful. I hope it gets better for all of us. The worst part for me is that I'm not sure what the real me is because I can't try any of the things I used to avoid to see if I like them without causing great pain for my DW.

I agree that what you did was not wrong and that the church and church culture are overstepping their bounds by making you feel that way.

I want to understand where my husband is coming from. I don't get it. I would think a man, even a TBM, would want to see his wife in something attractive (I had several women, strangers, comment to me how much they liked my dress). Instead he seems ashamed. What is going on here? What man wants his wife to wear garments? And gets upset when you go on vacation a couple hundred miles away and wear sleeveless clothing? Am I carrying on a stereotype that men just want to see skin so bad so my husband won't mind me in a sleeveless shirt? Is he an anomaly? Is he simply conditioned to see mormon fashion as attractive? I'm so confused. I'm glad I passed up on the two-piece swimsuit and shorts. I can't imagine how the weekend would have gone had I done that.

Your husband is a TBM, he has been indoctrinated into thinking that clothes that show women's shoulders are inherently bad. Also, shorts that don't cover garments. It is part of him. His sense of what looks attractive is probably guided by the church's modesty rules. Even if it isn't and he did like your dress, you wearing a sleeveless dress in public may trigger a stronger response from his indoctrination. I don't know if ashamed is the right word for his feelings, but something like it. He may not understand that you think a sleeveless dress is more attractive, and you expected him to think it was more attractive. For a TBM the clothes you wear are very much a virtue signal.

As for men wanting to see skin, sure, men typically like skin. But for a TBM there is a place for skin, and it is not in public. That triggers the strong virtue recognition sense.

[Just This Guy]

Part of it is that your DH, and a priesthood holder is responsible for you in some weird way. By your exposing yourself outside of Mormon boundaries, he is somewhat responsible for you and any negative response to your skin is also a reflection on him.

[crossmyheart]

2 questions
Does this have to do with you not wearing garments? The natural train of thought being that he has lost his eternal marriage with you and is worried for your salvation. You are now taking on the appearance of a heathen

Does this have to do with him not wanting to out yourself to his sister and/or the public in general? Still, the train of thought leading back to your eternal salvation is at stake.

[Emower]

Man, it would be a dream come true if my wife went for something as scandalous as a sleeveless shirt. I would love that, so I don't understand his reaction. Maybe he doesn't want people to know how far you have stepped away from the church? I really don't buy that he is conditioned to find it unattractive. Unless mormonism is way more effective than I think, I don't believe that is the case. Maybe he does have some weird thing about shoulders you don't know about, but I doubt it. My guess is it is a social issue.

[moksha]

It's like you've introduced beige into Grayscale World. It's unheard of, it's absurd. If beige was meant to exist they would have been informed about it by their authorities.

[Mad Jax]

I'll be honest, I thought you were going to begin describing something like a rotator cuff problem and ask if someone knew what was wrong.

I think what others have said is probable close to the mark. I had a somewhat similar issue with a few of the girls I dated when I first joined the church. I'm kind of embarrassed about this now but... it drove me nuts when girls I would go to church with would not only wear flip flops to church (just seemed wrong) but to make it worse, some would then abandon them during sacrament and walk around without anything for three hours. I was just hung up about it, probably because in no church I ever attended would it have been considered normal, and I was getting used to LDS culture etc etc.

But the truth is, I shouldn't have cared in the least, but I had a hang up. It just wasn't "what you do in church" as I saw it. But nothing they did was wrong. The problem was only in my mind. The observer. But it was enough to make me want to say something like "Don't you want to grab a pair of nicer shoes?" (I never said it just was thinking it). So I think it's likely that your husband has a similar cultural hang up.

[Dravin]

What I really want to know is this:

I want to understand where my husband is coming from. I don't get it. I would think a man, even a TBM, would want to see his wife in something attractive (I had several women, strangers, comment to me how much they liked my dress). Instead he seems ashamed. What is going on here? What man wants his wife to wear garments? And gets upset when you go on vacation a couple hundred miles away and wear sleeveless clothing? Am I carrying on a stereotype that men just want to see skin so bad so my husband won't mind me in a sleeveless shirt? Is he an anomaly? Is he simply conditioned to see mormon fashion as attractive? I'm so confused. I'm glad I passed up on the two-piece swimsuit and shorts. I can't imagine how the weekend would have gone had I done that.

If you were modeling things in your bedroom just for him he'd probably be fine with whatever you were wearing. Given he was embarrassed and not jealous I'm going to put aside the idea that it bothered him that other people might be sexualizing you in your 'indecent' apparel.

If you don't adhere to the Mormon dress code it's a very obvious signal to everyone that he doesn't have a 'good faithful wife'. Most of the world isn't going to make the connection between exposed shoulders and apostate but a lot of TBM will particularly if it is someone close to them. This can embarrass him in that not only does it 'shout' to the world that he doesn't have the picture perfect Mormon family but it can also reflect poorly on him if he buys into patriarchal ideas of him being responsible for your behavior and belief. He could be embarrassed because at some level, even one that he may not be able to clearly communicate or realize himself, that it announces that he has an apostate wife that he can't keep under control. The closest analog that keeps to mind is a parent with an unruly teenager, while the teen is an individual who can make their own decisions and actions, poor behavior on the part of the teen embarrasses the parent because they may feel and may be concerned that others feel, that the poor behavior on the teen's part announces to the world they are a bad parent.

Obviously the dynamic between husband and wife shouldn't be like that between parent and child, but nevertheless if he's bought into a patriarchal mindset then your 'poor' behavior announces to the world he's a bad head of the family and priesthood holder. To be a little fair there is a TBM wife equivalent (though obviously not rooted in ideas of patriarchy and priesthood) in which the wife feels responsible for not being righteous enough to prevent the husband's apostasy and therefore visible signals of apostasy on the husband's part are embarrassing because it announces her failure to Mormondom.

[Grace2Daisy]

To answer your first question, there is nothing wrong with your shoulders, it's the perception given to other Mormons. Decades ago the members were expected to wear one piece garmmies that extended to their wrists and ankles. Heaven forbid someone would see a forearm or even worst, a bare calf. I'm sure those TBMs were appalled with the thoughts of their spouses bearing "porn" forearms or calves. Eventually changes were made, and we are where we are today, porn shoulders. . . . . OMG!

I'm certain your husband loves you and your shoulders! He may simply be protective of your image with other TBMs, and it will take time for him to realize life is too short to worry about what others may think. He is also concerned about him personally, having a wife who is openly not living her covenants.

I stepped away from the church before my wife, and I stopped wearing my G's telling her I felt there was no reason to do so. She remained with one foot in the door of the church for a few months, then one day said she wanted to go shopping for underwear! Now I'm not a big shopper, but that was a day that will be forged into my mind forever! Today we both feel very comfortable being able to dress as we want. We laugh about how we use to have our underwear choices dictated by 15 old men living in Utah.

[MerrieMiss]

Everyone here has really great comments. I really appreciate them, even if I don’t respond directly to each one.

Does this have to do with you not wearing garments? The natural train of thought being that he has lost his eternal marriage with you and is worried for your salvation. You are now taking on the appearance of a heathen

I stopped wearing garments completely a few years ago. When he confronted me back then I told him that when he read his scriptures every day and had 100% HT he could get on my case about my underwear. It probably wasn’t the best way to handle it, but it’s the last time we discussed it.

I occasionally wear sleeveless dresses when we go on dates in our own area, so I was confused by his sudden insistence that I cover up. I’ve even worn them when his parents come over to babysit. I always wear the Mormon cardigan at home and take it off when we’re in the car until it’s time to see his parents again. He should know I’m not going to out myself to his family. Although it’s possible someone in his family garment checked me and talked to him about it, but I doubt it - they are extremely passive. I did fill my drawer with my old garments when we went out of town for a weekend just in case his mom snooped through my things. I'm highly paranoid.

It's like you've introduced beige into Grayscale World. It's unheard of, it's absurd. If beige was meant to exist they would have been informed about it by their authorities.

There’s way too much truth to this.

I totally understand the pain of being close to someone who is ashamed of the real you and feels pain anytime you are openly yourself. It is awful. I hope it gets better for all of us..

It was incredibly hurtful. I wear non-garment appropriate clothing all the time at home and my kids still love me and treat me the same. They have no judgment of me for having shoulders or legs and showing them. It’s possible that may change with time depending upon how heavily indoctrinated they become at church. It just hurt to have that judgment come from my husband.

There is a lot of anxiety wrapped up in these things because they are symbols which signal whether or not your "in" the Mormon club. Being in the club is a big deal, but being out of the club is even bigger. To break one of these norms or taboos signals disobedience and brings up feelings of anxiety over being shunned, and its not like that isn't a possibility.

So, I would suggest that its this he freaked out over, the anxiety of being in such a passive aggressive high context culture where even the smallest social queues are enough to start people whispering and avoiding your presence. To be shunned from one's society is akin to the fear of death. I'm sure, on a personal level, he could never be ashamed or embarrassed by you, but he's been indoctrinated into the church and the fear and anxiety is involuntary. I haven't been a believer for a long time and I still feel anxiety / paranoia when missing church.

I'm certain your husband loves you and your shoulders! He may simply be protective of your image with other TBMs, and it will take time for him to realize life is too short to worry about what others may think. He is also concerned about him personally, having a wife who is openly not living her covenants.

He does care about what other people think, so I think there’s some truth to this. And it's one thing that he knows I'm not wearing garments, but another to announce it to the world. He’s not the only one with anxiety. I never bought the shorts, but when I was shopping for them, I was sweating, my heart rate went up, and my hands were shaking. And I don’t even think I was doing anything wrong! (I also feel paranoia when I don't go to church even though I have absolutely no desire to be there.)

If you don't adhere to the Mormon dress code it's a very obvious signal to everyone that he doesn't have a 'good faithful wife'. This can embarrass him in that not only does it 'shout' to the world that he doesn't have the picture perfect Mormon family but it can also reflect poorly on him if he buys into patriarchal ideas of him being responsible for your behavior and belief. He could be embarrassed because at some level, even one that he may not be able to clearly communicate or realize himself, that it announces that he has an apostate wife that he can't keep under control. The closest analog that keeps to mind is a parent with an unruly teenager, while the teen is an individual who can make their own decisions and actions, poor behavior on the part of the teen embarrasses the parent because they may feel and may be concerned that others feel, that the poor behavior on the teen's part announces to the world they are a bad parent.

Obviously the dynamic between husband and wife shouldn't be like that between parent and child, but nevertheless if he's bought into a patriarchal mindset then your 'poor' behavior announces to the world he's a bad head of the family and priesthood holder.

We’re part of a patriarchal culture, although I don’t know how much he buys into it. He does somewhat, like he flipped out when I mused about wearing pants to church, but it isn’t like he’s Mr. Priesthood holder at home presiding and telling me what to do, doling out the money and telling me we have to have more kids, and I do know women in situations like that. I hadn’t thought about him feeling responsibility for my actions like that. I did feel like a child when he said, “We need to talk about this,” almost like a, “Go to your room young lady.” I don’t think he meant it that way and it isn’t his personality at all, so it might just be me feeling guilty for making him feel bad. Personal responsibility is something he may feel. He also has a very difficult time verbalizing his feelings, so conversations like this are extremely frustrating.

This whole thing may also be in part because in the past few months I've been pushing away from church a little more and this is his way of pushing back.

I think I just need to have the conversation with him and see where it goes. Unfortunately, I’m going to have to initiate it.

[Give It Time]

It's like you've introduced beige into Grayscale World. It's unheard of, it's absurd. If beige was meant to exist they would have been informed about it by their authorities.

That and more than the standard, single-eared piercing in each ear that they didn't want to concede to, but fashion and critical mass has rendered the issue irrelevant. Faith promoting rumor on document's thread whispers that coffee will be accepted in fifty years. Tea will take longer, if ever, because we are an American religion and tea stirs our revolutionary spirit.

We seem to be going the opposite direction with modesty. If shoulders being accepted, at all, is on the list, they are probably about one thousand years out.

[Brent]

As terrible as this sounds he's uptight because he's failing as a patriarch. Your "rebellon" shines a negative light on his leadership. Although you're wearing the clothes he's failing as your fundamental priesthood leader...and everyone can see it.

[ulmite]

I think it sounds like he cares about you and is scared of you being outed as a taboo breaker when you go out in public like that.
Adding the high emotions of a faith transition makes that fear grow stronger instead of being bludgeoned by reason.

My two cents of amateur psychology.

[Enough]

MM-- I knew EXACTLY what your post was about, after reading the title. No thoughts of extremity pain, joints, or rotator cuffs even started to come into my mind. But, then again-- after 45 years of LDS church activity/culture, I cannot even see a 2-year-old girl, in a sleeveless sundress...in August--- without the phrase "PORN SHOULDERS" entering my mind.

It's terrible what our modesty culture is doing to all of us. In so many (sick & twisted) ways.