What Does Non-Rape Culture Look Like?

[Linked]

TrophyWife had some great comments on Rape Culture in a previous post on modesty for primary kids that I've been ponderizing all week. NOM is great for that.

What I took away was that Rape Culture is the idea that women's bodies are sexual objects and thus women bear some responsibility for men's thoughts and actions. They must cover their bodies or they are walking pornography responsible for innumerable amounts of spilt seed as well as their own rapes. This is a societal problem. Part of the solution is changing society's view of women's bodies to something more similar to men's bodies; desexualizing and deobjectifying women.

I grew up as a straight boy in a society that heavily sexualized women's bodies. There was no question for me about my sexual preferences. When I saw something sexually stimulating it sometimes led to an expression of that. But my preferences were heavily shaped by the society I was raised in.

If someone grew up in a culture that desexualized women, or grew up completely isolated, what would be sexually stimulating for them? What would they masturbate to? I had a scout leader who told us his first wet dream was a dream about a bear chasing him, which isn't very stimulating (I didn't realize at the time that a 35 year old talking to 12 year olds about wet dreams was probably not appropriate, fortunately nothing traumatic happened that I know of). If they don't have society's influence to guide them sexually do people become asexual? Is this why women seem to be the lower desire partner on average, they haven't had society guiding them to find men's bodies as sexual objects? Is whatever society finds sexual doomed to be objectified? How can I be straight and sexual and not part of rape culture?

[Korihor]

Motorcyles
Boats
Nature
iPhones
BBQ

I can go on

[Rob4Hope]

Book of Mormon dude. Turns me OFF every time I read it. Oh wait...you were looking for turn ons?

The only one who had sex was Corihor,...and he got busted BAD for it. Publicly humliated, and his story (since it is real history mind you) has been used now for centuries to teach the consequences of sexual misconduct.

Oh wait....better hide that you do it. Don't tell anyone. LIE!....because as I heard a quote attributed to LDS authorities: "there are two type of men: those who masterbate and those who lie about it."

Anyone find the quote?

Thank GAWD no women ever do this. (please don't shatter my world and say they do....it just isn't so!)

[Red Ryder]

There's a lot more to sexuality than boobs, an erection, and rubbing one out on or near your BBQ, motorcycle, iPhone or whatever other weird kinky things Korihor does in the privacy of his home, car, or fort made out of cardboard boxes.

If someone grew up in a culture that desexualized women, or grew up completely isolated, what would be sexually stimulating for them? What would they masturbate to?

Pardon the pun, but sexual stimuli and masturbation shouldn't go hand in hand. Take masturbation out of the question. Most if not all normal people don't masturbate to everything they find sexually stimulating. So toss that one out and let's not tug at it for the sake of this conversation because it's not relevant. Beautiful eyes, a symmetrical face, eye contact and numerous other things create attraction and ultimately sexual stimuli.

If they don't have society's influence to guide them sexually do people become asexual?

Generally speaking, no. Sex and reproduction are biologically hard wired within all species. Think of dogs, cats, bunnies, elephants, and all other manner of animals. Sex is survival for humans. Sexual desire is the manifestation that starts the act of reproduction.

Is this why women seem to be the lower desire partner on average, they haven't had society guiding them to find men's bodies as sexual objects? Is whatever society finds sexual doomed to be objectified?

There's a few stereotypes here that just aren't true. Jennifer Finlayson Fife would suggest women are naturally more sexual than men and men are just as likely to be considered sexual objects. Just ask any fireman who graced the cover of a calendar.

How can I be straight and sexual and not part of rape culture?

Respect? Own your thoughts and actions. Don't be creepy?

[hmb]

Masturbation leads to homosexuality. Don't you remember? It's in The Miracle of Forgiveness; if a prophet said so, it must be true. So why is the LGBT community a minority? There's the proof that only a minority of people do....that....thang.

[Linked]

This post was meant to be a thoughtfully questioning post on what non-rape culture looks like with a raunchy title to get clicks. I fear I may have been too callous for a sensitive topic.

I apologize to anyone this may have offended, especially the wonderful women of NOM who have been marginalized by rape culture.

[StarbucksMom]

This post was meant to be a thoughtfully questioning post on what non-rape culture looks like with a raunchy title to get clicks. I fear I may have been too callous for a sensitive topic.

I apologize to anyone this may have offended, especially the wonderful women of NOM who have been marginalized by rape culture.

Thank you for saying this. I actually did find this offensive and I appreciate your apology.

[Thoughtful]

This post was meant to be a thoughtfully questioning post on what non-rape culture looks like with a raunchy title to get clicks. I fear I may have been too callous for a sensitive topic.

I apologize to anyone this may have offended, especially the wonderful women of NOM who have been marginalized by rape culture.

Thank you for saying this. I actually did find this offensive and I appreciate your apology.

Yes, the thread is offensive to me as well. The OP is written as if men must have something to objectify and use in order to express themselves sexually. Consider that perhaps this perspective is in and of itself a product of rape culture. Sexual expression can be related to giving and receiving affection, flat out physical stimulation by itself, and a whole plethora of sexual experiences that don't involve the objectification and use of women (Or any other population.)

[MoPag]

Thank you for saying this. I actually did find this offensive and I appreciate your apology.

Same^^

Linked-I know you are a good person and you didn't mean it to come off like this. So I appreciate you apology. Let me try to share my perspective (I encourage other NOM ladies to do the same) And we can work from here to better understand each other.

So this thread,--It's like we've established women are people and shouldn't be viewed as sexual objects-which is great-

But it seemed like topic of this thread was to highlight the inconvenience men experience if they chose to see women as human beings and not objects for their "pleasure." And that is f@#$ed up.

Or maybe it was just the title "What would they masturbate to?" It's like we are acknowledging rape culture exists, but refusing to let go of male privilege and entitlement. Yeah, I think it is the title that skews the tone of this whole thread. Maybe change it to something like: "The Relationship Between Masturbation and Rape Culture." Something like that.

[Linked]

Thank you for saying this. I actually did find this offensive and I appreciate your apology.

Same^^

Linked-I know you are a good person and you didn't mean it to come off like this. So I appreciate you apology. Let me try to share my perspective (I encourage other NOM ladies to do the same) And we can work from here to better understand each other.

Thanks for the vote of confidence MoPag, I was worried that this post burned all my emotional capital. I would love to hear your and others views, in fact, that was the point of the post.

So this thread,--It's like we've established women are people and shouldn't be viewed as sexual objects-which is great-

Yes! 100%. I've always respected women as people, I preferred dating smart, accomplished, and older women (not that this deserves kudos or another preference is bad, it just sets up my personal conundrum). But outside of dating where there was not a possibility of a romantic/sexual component I have struggled to form strong relationships with women. I think this may be due to being indoctrinated into a culture that sexualizes and objectifies women. But I wonder if I would struggle anyway, because I am a sexual being, like many people. Or maybe it's some combination. It doesn't help that I work in a field dominated by men and my team at work has no women in it.

But it seemed like topic of this thread was to highlight the inconvenience men experience if they chose to see women as human beings and not objects for their "pleasure." And that is f@#$ed up.

Or maybe it was just the title "What would they masturbate to?" It's like we are acknowledging rape culture exists, but refusing to let go of male privilege and entitlement. Yeah, I think it is the title that skews the tone of this whole thread. Maybe change it to something like: "The Relationship Between Masturbation and Rape Culture." Something like that.

I'm sorry that was the message I sent, it is not what I meant, but after reading through it I realize that is basically what I said. I didn't mean for this to be men-centric, more society-centric, but I'm a man and it's the only viewpoint I've got so it bleeds through. I wasn't trying to highlight the inconvenience for men, I am trying to understand how sexuality works for anyone without sexualizing something. A romantic evening, a mysterious tall dark and handsome guy, a neckline, or a shoulder. This may be too personal, but I have often longed for my wife to see me as an object for her pleasure, but she doesn't.

I agree the title is a problem. The question about what one uses for masturbation was only meant to highlight one aspect to explore post-rape culture. The question was meant for both sexes, and assumes a non-rape, shame-free culture where masturbation is considered a normal activity by mentally and spiritually healthy people; i.e. masturbation isn't a sin nor is it a sign of an overly-sexual person. Is it possible to have that world without sexual objectification? Or is masturbation the epitome of sexual objectification?

I considered updating the first post and deleting everything, but decided against that because I think a decent thread can be salvaged, or at least a lesson about how not to post. I tried to change the title but don't seem to be able to. If anyone knows how to change a thread title please let me know. Or if it's an admin thing, could an admin please update the thread to "What Does Non-Rape Culture Look Like"?

[Linked]

This post was meant to be a thoughtfully questioning post on what non-rape culture looks like with a raunchy title to get clicks. I fear I may have been too callous for a sensitive topic.

I apologize to anyone this may have offended, especially the wonderful women of NOM who have been marginalized by rape culture.

Thank you for saying this. I actually did find this offensive and I appreciate your apology.

Yes, the thread is offensive to me as well. The OP is written as if men must have something to objectify and use in order to express themselves sexually. Consider that perhaps this perspective is in and of itself a product of rape culture. Sexual expression can be related to giving and receiving affection, flat out physical stimulation by itself, and a whole plethora of sexual experiences that don't involve the objectification and use of women (Or any other population.)

Thanks for your response Thoughtful. A lot of my response to MoPag addresses what you have said here as well, so I won't rehash that.

I agree that I have been shaped by a society that objectifies women, and that my post shows that. I am trying to grow past that and I appreciate your help.

I think I am struggling to understand how one can express sexuality without sexually objectifying something. If giving/receiving affection is what sexually stimulates someone, then doesn't that become a sexual object to them? Physical stimulation by itself creates sexual thoughts of whatever is sexually stimulating (I performed a controlled experiment when I was 12...).

Jennifer Finlayson Fife was brought up by Red Ryder earlier, she has some great podcasts on Rational Faiths about mormon sex lives. On one of her podcasts someone mentioned that they feel bad fantasizing during sex with their husband, but it's the only way she can be sexual. Dr. Finlayson-Fife recommended this person not turn off her fantasies but to include her husband in them. In my mind those fantasies are sexual objects. So are they good or bad?

[I'm thinking this through as I go here]There is clearly a difference between a woman fantasizing during sex with her husband and a creeper who follows a girl around because she has a low neckline at a party. But they both include sexual objectification. The creeper at the party is engaging in potentially unwanted behavior, where the wife is not. Is that the difference between rape culture and non-rape culture?

[CaptainSalty]

I considered updating the first post and deleting everything, but decided against that because I think a decent thread can be salvaged, or at least a lesson about how not to post. I tried to change the title but don't seem to be able to. If anyone knows how to change a thread title please let me know. Or if it's an admin thing, could an admin please update the thread to "What Does Non-Rape Culture Look Like"?

Done.

[Dravin]

I would think there is a distinction to be made between seeing someone as a being with a sexual aspet and seeing someone as a sexual object. If I look upon women as simply things that clean and cook rather than beings with their own wants and volition then I've objectified them, they've become something that exists to be used, a sort of fancy Roomba rather than a being. Likewise, if women are simply sexual things, to be used in some manner or other (be it objects of fantasy or sex) rather than beings with their own wants and volitions I've objectified them. This doesn't mean I can't enjoy my wife's cooking, nor does it mean I can't enjoy the seuxality of a woman, but when I do this am I relating to an object? Or a person? To be pithy, do you view women as beings or sexual things?

[MerrieMiss]

I would think there is a distinction to be made between seeing someone as a being with a sexual aspet and seeing someone as a sexual object. If I look upon women as simply things that clean and cook rather than beings with their own wants and volition then I've objectified them, they've become something that exists to be used, a sort of fancy Roomba rather than a being. Likewise, if women are simply sexual things, to be used in some manner or other (be it objects of fantasy or sex) rather than beings with their own wants and volitions I've objectified them. This doesn't mean I can't enjoy my wife's cooking, nor does it mean I can't enjoy the seuxality of a woman, but when I do this am I relating to an object? Or a person? To be pithy, do you view women as beings or sexual things?

This.

[Thoughtful]

Thank you for saying this. I actually did find this offensive and I appreciate your apology.

Yes, the thread is offensive to me as well. The OP is written as if men must have something to objectify and use in order to express themselves sexually. Consider that perhaps this perspective is in and of itself a product of rape culture. Sexual expression can be related to giving and receiving affection, flat out physical stimulation by itself, and a whole plethora of sexual experiences that don't involve the objectification and use of women (Or any other population.)

Thanks for your response Thoughtful. A lot of my response to MoPag addresses what you have said here as well, so I won't rehash that.

I agree that I have been shaped by a society that objectifies women, and that my post shows that. I am trying to grow past that and I appreciate your help.

I think I am struggling to understand how one can express sexuality without sexually objectifying something. If giving/receiving affection is what sexually stimulates someone, then doesn't that become a sexual object to them? Physical stimulation by itself creates sexual thoughts of whatever is sexually stimulating (I performed a controlled experiment when I was 12...).

Jennifer Finlayson Fife was brought up by Red Ryder earlier, she has some great podcasts on Rational Faiths about mormon sex lives. On one of her podcasts someone mentioned that they feel bad fantasizing during sex with their husband, but it's the only way she can be sexual. Dr. Finlayson-Fife recommended this person not turn off her fantasies but to include her husband in them. In my mind those fantasies are sexual objects. So are they good or bad?

[I'm thinking this through as I go here]There is clearly a difference between a woman fantasizing during sex with her husband and a creeper who follows a girl around because she has a low neckline at a party. But they both include sexual objectification. The creeper at the party is engaging in potentially unwanted behavior, where the wife is not. Is that the difference between rape culture and non-rape culture?

Are you using someone to get off? You're objectifying them.

Are you interacting with someone, having an experience together that is mutually enjoyable? Are you relating with someone in a way where their pleasure is as much a priority as your own, or seeing them as a means to an end?

Also, re: rape culture... read this link on why women bristle at "jokes" that represent a real and constant lived danger to them: http://u.pw/2kLaVPU?s=p

[Red Ryder]

I read through the OP again and think there are two discussion points that should be separated. Yes they go hand in hand, but for the sake of discussion let's separate.

1. rape culture
2. Sexuality and attractiveness

I think the masturbation title (before Captain Salty changed it) should be attached to #2 above. Let's look at this from a "Vanilla Sex (VS)" perspective. If the moral majority in society (or religion) standardized sexuality and condensed human behaviors down to a concise set of rules, what would sex, sexuality, and attractiveness look like? Would anyone be interested with the same routine, expectations, and experience? Who would we (humans) be attracted to if everyone thought the same, dressed the same, talked the same? Are women treated as an object or a human being? Are men treated as an object, paycheck, pleasure stick, or a human being?

My mind is drifting to the mormon idea of heaven with one man, his first wife, and thousands of spirit growing containment units.
I really hate the church for instilling this sense of male entitlement and objectifying women as sole baby making objects in this life and the next. Perhaps this is part of the problem.

[MerrieMiss]

Let me try to share my perspective (I encourage other NOM ladies to do the same) And we can work from here to better understand each other.

All right. Normally I wouldn't respond on a post like this, but here goes. I wasn’t offended by the post, but I’m not certain I understood it. My takeaway was that the post was male-centric with regards to sexual feelings and expression.

My biggest problem with my own experience with the church and sexuality is that it completely ignored me as a person with sexual feelings. While the anti-porn and anti-masturbation rhetoric was being thrown at the men in the church, the church was silent on this in its approach to women. It isn’t that the church overtly told me, “You are a woman and you can’t have sexual feelings,” it’s that the church ignored the possibility that I might find anything arousing, that I might enjoy porn or masturbation and by ignoring it and putting that all on the shoulders of men, I learned that men have sexual feelings, women do not and if a woman does, she is dirty and impure and unnatural - Good Girl Syndrome is born.

I was taught that women are sexual objects – the most important thing about me was sexual purity and virginity. Those were objects to be given to a man and my husband was supposed to take them from me – not the purity perhaps, but definitely the virginity. The most important thing he could give me was the status of worthy priesthood holder and returned missionary, which may or may not include sexual purity/virginity (because we know men are weak and can mess up but they can repent). I feel the need to clarify and say that I’m in no way saying that women in the church should be shamed the same way men are and I’m not suggesting that women objectify men. And the way the church treats men in this respect is a huge issue with me because I have sons who will someday experience this.

So back to the post, what I read was the idea that masturbation is for men and sexual feelings are for men. And I think what Dravin has to say is spot on: people are not objects, but they do have sexual feelings and needs and expression. But objectification need not be limited to sex. My husband isn’t an object whose purpose is to deposit money in the bank. My children are not objects to give my life meaning or provide me with feelings of self-worth. I’m not the Roomba (although there are times I do feel like it). No one likes to objectified.

[Linked]

Thanks Captain Salty.

I would think there is a distinction to be made between seeing someone as a being with a sexual aspet and seeing someone as a sexual object. If I look upon women as simply things that clean and cook rather than beings with their own wants and volition then I've objectified them, they've become something that exists to be used, a sort of fancy Roomba rather than a being. Likewise, if women are simply sexual things, to be used in some manner or other (be it objects of fantasy or sex) rather than beings with their own wants and volitions I've objectified them. This doesn't mean I can't enjoy my wife's cooking, nor does it mean I can't enjoy the seuxality of a woman, but when I do this am I relating to an object? Or a person? To be pithy, do you view women as beings or sexual things?

Good distinction. It seems like a person can go in and out of objectifying as well as in and out of feeling objectified by the same person and the same actions. For example, I may pat my wife on the bum in the kitchen one day and she feels like I am objectifying her, then another day she feels like I am being an affectionate husband. And how do you handle when your not "in the mood" and your spouse is? Is it objectification by my wife if she is in the mood and I'm not, but I go along with it anyway because I love her and want this for her? Is it objectification if she is in the mood and I'm not and I say so and she pressures me into it? I feel like this line of objectification is a thin and moving one.

Are you using someone to get off? You're objectifying them.

Are you interacting with someone, having an experience together that is mutually enjoyable? Are you relating with someone in a way where their pleasure is as much a priority as your own, or seeing them as a means to an end?

Also, re: rape culture... read this link on why women bristle at "jokes" that represent a real and constant lived danger to them: http://u.pw/2kLaVPU?s=p

I am trying to understand. Let's say a woman is really attracted to Channing Tatum. She goes to Magic Mike 3, then goes home to her husband and they make love while he pretends to be Magic Mike and she imagines he is Channing Tatum. The next day, she bumps into Mr. Tatum on the street and she is polite and treats him normally. She sexually objectified Mr. Tatum the night before, but treated him normally when they met. Is that objectification bad? When he made the movie he was well aware that he would be objectified and still agreed to it. Also, he is a man so he doesn't deal with the cat calls and the pick up lines and the random slaps in the bum from strangers in his day to day like the link you posted point out (or maybe he does, I don't know). And when she met him she didn't do anything objectifying.

With regard to the mutually enjoyable experience, let's say there is a married couple with young children. The wife is trying to be a good wife and mother and she works herself to exhaustion every day. On top of that, she's not sure if she really wants to be with her husband. She has zero interest in sex, and dreads any time it comes up. Her husband is interested in her, but all of his romantic efforts are met with dread. Occasionally the wife will consent, but in a way that makes it clear she is just doing this for the husband and she does not want to get anything out of it herself. What should this husband do? If he agrees then he is objectifying and taking advantage of her, if he refuses then he is rejecting her and she gets angry. If he makes advances she is in pain, but not making advances brings its own problems.

Thanks for the link, that was a good read. I am not that guy, like, at all. A conundrum that I see is that in real life at bars the guy who goes home with a girl is typically not the respectful and polite one. It's the confident guy with a dirty mouth. My bar experience is limited, but I have seen this several times. Of course, the bar scene is one where both sides are pretty heavily objectified, so it may be a bad example for this discussion.

[Linked]

I read through the OP again and think there are two discussion points that should be separated. Yes they go hand in hand, but for the sake of discussion let's separate.

1. rape culture
2. Sexuality and attractiveness

I think the masturbation title (before Captain Salty changed it) should be attached to #2 above. Let's look at this from a "Vanilla Sex (VS)" perspective. If the moral majority in society (or religion) standardized sexuality and condensed human behaviors down to a concise set of rules, what would sex, sexuality, and attractiveness look like? Would anyone be interested with the same routine, expectations, and experience? Who would we (humans) be attracted to if everyone thought the same, dressed the same, talked the same? Are women treated as an object or a human being? Are men treated as an object, paycheck, pleasure stick, or a human being?

My mind is drifting to the mormon idea of heaven with one man, his first wife, and thousands of spirit growing containment units.
I really hate the church for instilling this sense of male entitlement and objectifying women as sole baby making objects in this life and the next. Perhaps this is part of the problem.

I think the thing that ties these together is that objectification of women is a central component of rape culture, and finding something sexual is objectifying. So if one is sexually attracted to a woman they have objectified her and thus are a supporter of rape culture. I am probably just misunderstanding or oversimplifying something here, but that's my take.

I think the standardized sexuality you mention would work for a percentage of the people whose sexuality matches the standard. It would create problems for those that don't fit, like US society has historically for LGBTQ+ and possibly women. What if men were the ones sexually objectified by society? Is it possible for those in control of society to be objectified by it?

The polygamous celestial kingdom can definitely lead to objectification of women as baby making machines. That is messed up.

[Linked]

Let me try to share my perspective (I encourage other NOM ladies to do the same) And we can work from here to better understand each other.

All right. Normally I wouldn't respond on a post like this, but here goes. I wasn’t offended by the post, but I’m not certain I understood it. My takeaway was that the post was male-centric with regards to sexual feelings and expression.

My biggest problem with my own experience with the church and sexuality is that it completely ignored me as a person with sexual feelings. While the anti-porn and anti-masturbation rhetoric was being thrown at the men in the church, the church was silent on this in its approach to women. It isn’t that the church overtly told me, “You are a woman and you can’t have sexual feelings,” it’s that the church ignored the possibility that I might find anything arousing, that I might enjoy porn or masturbation and by ignoring it and putting that all on the shoulders of men, I learned that men have sexual feelings, women do not and if a woman does, she is dirty and impure and unnatural - Good Girl Syndrome is born.

I was taught that women are sexual objects – the most important thing about me was sexual purity and virginity. Those were objects to be given to a man and my husband was supposed to take them from me – not the purity perhaps, but definitely the virginity. The most important thing he could give me was the status of worthy priesthood holder and returned missionary, which may or may not include sexual purity/virginity (because we know men are weak and can mess up but they can repent). I feel the need to clarify and say that I’m in no way saying that women in the church should be shamed the same way men are and I’m not suggesting that women objectify men. And the way the church treats men in this respect is a huge issue with me because I have sons who will someday experience this.

So back to the post, what I read was the idea that masturbation is for men and sexual feelings are for men. And I think what Dravin has to say is spot on: people are not objects, but they do have sexual feelings and needs and expression. But objectification need not be limited to sex. My husband isn’t an object whose purpose is to deposit money in the bank. My children are not objects to give my life meaning or provide me with feelings of self-worth. I’m not the Roomba (although there are times I do feel like it). No one likes to objectified.

Thanks MerrieMiss, I appreciate you posting. The post wasn't meant to be male-centric. I was under the impression that women masturbate too, though I have no idea. As a man I don't know what being a woman is like. But without sexualization of something I don't know what women or men would think about sexually. What do womens and mens sexual feelings, needs, and expressions become without sexual objectification? Maybe I've got a problem...

I had never heard of Good Girl Syndrome. It sounds like it would affect most women in the church. Though, to many TBMs I think they might view it as the right way to be, rather than a problem. Your comment on the most important thing a husband can give being a worthy priesthood holder and returned missionary really hit home for me. And I'm not those anymore for my wife, so she would like to return me.

I will try to treat people like people and not objects. Thanks for the reminder.