NOM

Yesterday I attended an annual breakfast for Independence Day. It is put on by my mother's ward who is very welcoming and loving towards me, despite my resignation of membership. These are families I grew up with, and while many other wards in the stake are weary of me, this ward is not. I go to two events a year, the Christmas party and the 4th party.

I suffer from obsessive compulsive disorder. In the morning, I have a cup of coffee and an English muffin with margarine spread and a banana. I have done this since my divorce and is both a comforting thing, and without it I have significant anxiety throughout the day. It isn't a pretty picture.

So, there is a problem with a 4th of a July breakfast event. I can either (a) eat at home or (b) take my food to the party. I felt it would be inappropriate and somewhat disrespectful for me to show up to an LDS event with a cup of coffee in hand. On top of that, I didn't really want the stares that I get when an LDS person sees me with coffee. So, I ate at home before my children awoke.

My children love imitation orange juice, pancakes, eggs, and bacon. They also love playgrounds and lots of other children. They were in heaven. I was already filled and not a big fan of any of those things but I do love shade, fresh cut grass, and brass bands, so I was in heaven. It was a good event.

Multiple people asked why I wasn't eating, and I said, "routine kicked in and I ate breakfast at home". One of the older members (who has known me for years) said, "Oh, John, nobody here would have cared if you brought your cup of coffee". I replied that she hit the nail on the head but out of respect for other members I would not have brought it. She again insisted that nobody would have cared.

The conversation struck me and I thought about it throughout the day. It struck me that that small conversation was a reflection of much of my Mormon experience. Mormonism is very often applies silent social pressure rather than a direct tone. When those who feel the silent social pressure and complains, the membership denies that the social pressure exists because it is not spoken. I've been in many conversations where nothing in said in the moment and then a few hours later when the person is not around much is said behind one's back.

But, until you experience the stares or the whispers, it is difficult to realize that the pressure is there. The first time I experienced it was when I visited family in another state and forgot my church clothes. I went to church in a pair of shorts and a t-shirt and nobody spoke to me. The smiles were gone and people would look and then whisper to their neighbor. Nobody told me verbally that I shouldn't wear shorts and a t-shirt, but their stares and whispers were enough for me to never do any such thing again.

The member who brought that up was raised LDS and has remained active throughout her life. She was the primary president when I was a child and a relief society present when I was older and a teenager. She hasn't experienced it and thus probably doesn't realize it is there.

I agree with you, but see the discrimination as fading towards coffee. Not so much towards Sunday dress, though.

I have two TBM friends in different states who make no effort to hide their Starbucks addictions. They both post on social media about their favorites and are almost always seen in public with them, even at church. Both serve in RS/Primary presidencies. I have asked them about it and get the impression that they aren't the only ones who drink coffee openly. I think it is just being normalized through general public acceptance, probably with a heavy influence from the millennial generation.

These days everyone carries around an insulated mug- so it could have anything from water to bourbon in it and no one would be much the wiser. Only the true snoops would even care to ask what you are drinking. Most of the time I assume people are drinking water...

However, it will be a much longer time before shorts and a t-shirt are normalized at church.

crossmyheart wrote: ↑Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:23 am I agree with you, but see the discrimination as fading towards coffee. Not so much towards Sunday dress, though.

I have two TBM friends in different states who make no effort to hide their Starbucks addictions. They both post on social media about their favorites and are almost always seen in public with them, even at church. Both serve in RS/Primary presidencies. I have asked them about it and get the impression that they aren't the only ones who drink coffee openly. I think it is just being normalized through general public acceptance, probably with a heavy influence from the millennial generation.

These days everyone carries around an insulated mug- so it could have anything from water to bourbon in it and no one would be much the wiser. Only the true snoops would even care to ask what you are drinking. Most of the time I assume people are drinking water...

However, it will be a much longer time before shorts and a t-shirt are normalized at church.

Wow, what part of the US is this coffee normalization happening? Not Utah county I imagine.

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:36 am Wow, what part of the US is this coffee normalization happening? Not Utah county I imagine.

Sadly, no- does St. George count? The other is in metro Denver. And I forgot one in North Carolina. She is even a do Terra rep if that gives her any extra bonus points.

I live in a mini-Utah. During the Manhattan project a lot of Mormons moved up here to work at the reactors. These same people stuck around during the cold war and a thriving LDS community has built up in our area. Any area outside of the Tri-Cities area in Washington you get much lower populations of Mormons. Here it is around 8 - 12%. There is a neighborhood right by one of our chapels that is around 70% Mormon (we counted houses one day on a walk).

The Mormons in my city tend to be more uptight than those in surrounding areas in Washington.

Have any of you ever been to Moab on a Sunday? The whole back of the chapel is filled with people in shorts and a t-shirt. And probably no shower. The ward seems very accepting of it, and every Sunday prepares for extra sacrament with more bread, water, and teenagers passing it. I like it. It's fun to be there in much more relaxing clothes.

BTW I hate pants. Ten seconds after I get home they come right off and the basketball shorts go on. For the rest of the day. If I never had to wear pants again at Church, I might just come back.

achilles wrote: ↑Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:30 am Have any of you ever been to Moab on a Sunday? The whole back of the chapel is filled with people in shorts and a t-shirt. And probably no shower. The ward seems very accepting of it, and every Sunday prepares for extra sacrament with more bread, water, and teenagers passing it. I like it. It's fun to be there in much more relaxing clothes.

BTW I hate pants. Ten seconds after I get home they come right off and the basketball shorts go on. For the rest of the day. If I never had to wear pants again at Church, I might just come back.

My DH says our ward here at Bear Lake is the same. Even women are in shorts. Here they have to expand and have 2 sacrament meetings because so many tourists come. And even with the additional Sac meeting, there is standing room in the foyer only if you are not there early. During the winter when the full time residents are the only ones, the chapel is only 1/4 full. But that expands to 2 over full chapels during summer. So, they run two sacrament meetings and then after the second one they have SS and PH/RS.

document wrote: ↑Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:02 am I live in a mini-Utah. During the Manhattan project a lot of Mormons moved up here to work at the reactors. These same people stuck around during the cold war and a thriving LDS community has built up in our area. Any area outside of the Tri-Cities area in Washington you get much lower populations of Mormons. Here it is around 8 - 12%. There is a neighborhood right by one of our chapels that is around 70% Mormon (we counted houses one day on a walk).

The Mormons in my city tend to be more uptight than those in surrounding areas in Washington.

This is very interesting. We were recently driving through the Tri-Cities and my husband and I were wondering why there are so many Mormons in the middle of nowhere. (No offense! I have a soft spot in my heart for eastern Washington!) From what I can tell, the Spokane Valley also has a high concentration of Mormons and has become an enclave of sorts. I know several families who have moved there recently to be closer to other mormons.

We also recently moved from a similar small suburb in the PNW, created by the at one time, very low cost of housing - a good thing for big families. We lived in the smallest ward in the state – maybe a 2-mile perimeter, no more than thirty or forty minutes to walk around it. It’s the closest to living in a Utah ward I’m likely to get. Having moved away I am now understanding why so many Mormons want to move back to Utah. There was an extremely strong sense community, providing you were a good TBM Mormon. I'm a non-believer introvert and find I miss it more than I thought I would, mostly for the kids. It was also heavily judgmental and focused on outward appearance - unless of course, they think they can get you back into the fold in which case they were extremely open and accepting. Outside that suburb, Mormons seem a lot more laid back.

"My DH says our ward here at Bear Lake is the same."

My wife and I have a second home at Bear Lake and usually go sit in an overflow room where they have a tv with the cc tv on it. We wear shorts and t-shirts and have always felt like the locals are glad we are there.

document wrote: ↑Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:52 am The member who brought that up was raised LDS and has remained active throughout her life. She was the primary president when I was a child and a relief society present when I was older and a teenager. She hasn't experienced it and thus probably doesn't realize it is there.

I have several Mormon friends like this. Recently one was talking to me about a single sister and how she just doesn't see that she is treated differently or should feel uncomfortable at church. It's like that with anything she's never experienced-it doesn't exist or they're paranoid. To me this perpetuates the attitude that those that leave have the problem, not that problems exist in the church.

Privilege is invisible to those who have it.

That's from a TED talk and the speaker was quoting an unnamed woman. Unfortunate, because it's a terrific statement.

She holds that privilege, because she's never been in your position. Next opportunity, have her miss about a month of church before the event, then invite her to come to Starbucks with you. Get her a hot cocoa. Have her walk around the function with the hot cocoa without telling anyone what's in the cup. Have her report back.

I sense that the LDS culture may be taking the coffee a little less seriously. I live and work in Utah, and while I don't keep a tally, I notice a lot of LDS-types seem to be carrying their coffee cups.

dispirited wrote: ↑Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:32 pm "My DH says our ward here at Bear Lake is the same."

My wife and I have a second home at Bear Lake and usually go sit in an overflow room where they have a tv with the cc tv on it. We wear shorts and t-shirts and have always felt like the locals are glad we are there.

Hi neighbor. We live in Fish Haven for the summer.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:13 pm I sense that the LDS culture may be taking the coffee a little less seriously. I live and work in Utah, and while I don't keep a tally, I notice a lot of LDS-types seem to be carrying their coffee cups.

This hasn't been my case, at all. My work place is predominantly LDS. I have had coffee, tea and copious amounts of diet cola. I have settled on diet cola and tea. When I have the soda, everything's fine. When I have the tea, the sideways glances come out, the avoided eye contact, the double takes at the cup. I even had one co-worker who thought I must have been looking for a healthier way to get my caffeine than soda and gave me a sample of her powder that I add to my water to make fizzy, caffeinated goodness. I tried the sample. Fine, but not my thing. I like tea. Soothing, natural, real tea.

I got the same "silent disapproval" with the tats. The disapproving glance is just something most younger members never learned to hide. The quick look at my forearms followed by a mild scowl is just something too automatic for most people and I think there is little pressure to dissuade this in the church.

The plus side is that the "intrigued" glance is also something the young don't naturally stifle, so I could tell who would enjoy my company right off for being a bit different. My ink was my own personal gift of discernment.

document wrote: ↑Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:52 am When those who feel the silent social pressure and complains, the membership denies that the social pressure exists because it is not spoken. I've been in many conversations where nothing in said in the moment and then a few hours later when the person is not around much is said behind one's back.

I know what you mean, but I imagine that deep down these same people realize the need to be authentic and may secretly applaud that effort even if their tongues wag by force of habit. Bringing your comfort items and experiencing them in a new environment might also lessen the bondage of OCD for you.

moksha wrote: ↑Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:11 pm

document wrote: ↑Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:52 am When those who feel the silent social pressure and complains, the membership denies that the social pressure exists because it is not spoken. I've been in many conversations where nothing in said in the moment and then a few hours later when the person is not around much is said behind one's back.

I know what you mean, but I imagine that deep down these same people realize the need to be authentic and may secretly applaud that effort even if their tongues wag by force of habit. Bringing your comfort items and experiencing them in a new environment might also lessen the bondage of OCD for you.

Okay, that was excellent. I may adapt it to my situation.