NOM

Over the past few years I have seen all sorts of analysis and conversation about the merits or lack thereof of the church. My awakening about the church is now 7 years old and I was 50 then, so I have seen the church from many angles.

After everything I have read or thought about I am still left with the inescapable conclusion no one knows a dam thing. Everything seems to be conjecture and some kind of spin. I mean the church could be completely true or not have shred of truth in it. Who can really know. And what is the point of chasing after doctrine that is so elusive?

Some people have spiritual experiences, others like me get zilch. Some people claim some kind of insight and others think it is all baloney. I mean is there really anything to any of it? I certainly can not conclude more than my own experience that wants to believe something but finds rationality stacked against it.

I am left to conclude we know nothing and that will continue until something changes. In the meantime I suppose you just do the best you can.

1smartdodog wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:36 pm

Some people have spiritual experiences...

I am left to conclude we know nothing and that will continue until something changes. In the meantime I suppose you just do the best you can.

I have had what I have previously ascribed as spiritual experiences - feelings of sustained euphoria/clarity and unusual coincidences. However, right now I'm too burnt out to jump back in to finding meaning. My instinct is that there is something, it is more than coincidence, and those feelings of being in touch with the divine are a subtle clue that there is reason for a generalised faith in humans having a soul and purpose.

But it would seem that no one 'knows' anything. Though some people might see through a glass darkly.

Funnily enough I was watching a documentary about psychedelics and the accompanying awe and sense of oneness - it has been many years since I dabbled, but when I used to trip I it would make me believe more in a God - it seemed such a waste and did not make sense to be able to experience the infinite and then just die off. So the question is what are the purpose of these experiences? From a sociobiological view are they simply to harmonise us in tribal living, or are they a clue of our place in the universe that goes beyond the mundane of every day life and beyond death? Sorry for going off on a slight tangent.

TL:DR I think there's something more than this temporal existence. But agree with the OP that no one knows anything for sure.

I see no reason to think that spiritual things exist, and some reason to think that they don't.

redjay wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:25 am My instinct is that there is something, it is more than coincidence, and those feelings of being in touch with the divine are a subtle clue that there is reason for a generalised faith in humans having a soul and purpose.

But it would seem that no one 'knows' anything. Though some people might see through a glass darkly.

Funnily enough I was watching a documentary about psychedelics and the accompanying awe and sense of oneness - it has been many years since I dabbled, but when I used to trip I it would make me believe more in a God - it seemed such a waste and did not make sense to be able to experience the infinite and then just die off. So the question is what are the purpose of these experiences? From a sociobiological view are they simply to harmonise us in tribal living, or are they a clue of our place in the universe that goes beyond the mundane of every day life and beyond death? Sorry for going off on a slight tangent.

So...since my crash landing from Mormonism, I have developed a fascination with ayahuasca. I've seen some documentaries, and thought "Maybe I should prepare myself and do it." I'm on some guys email list who has a church down in Peru where they perform ayahuasca ceremonies, and supposedly most of them have deep, meaningful experiences that change their lives, give them clarity, etc.

https://ayahuascahealings.com/ayahuasca ... redvalley/

achilles wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:56 am
So...since my crash landing from Mormonism, I have developed a fascination with ayahuasca. I've seen some documentaries, and thought "Maybe I should prepare myself and do it." I'm on some guys email list who has a church down in Peru where they perform ayahuasca ceremonies, and supposedly most of them have deep, meaningful experiences that change their lives, give them clarity, etc.

https://ayahuascahealings.com/ayahuasca ... redvalley/

This is interesting. I would love to do something like this one day.

I'm still a spiritual person. It's the way I am; it works for me. And it is so much easier to embrace my spirituality since I stopped being TBM.

Everyone has their own path. Some people walk a spiritual path; some don't. Do what is best for you.

I sometimes say I'm 90% convinced the church is NOT true- that is, the one and only, no error in the revelations of Joseph party line. If I encounter Mormon Jesus or Elohim in the next life, I hope they have time to answer a lot of questions.

redjay wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:25 am
I have had what I have previously ascribed as spiritual experiences - feelings of sustained euphoria/clarity and unusual coincidences. However, right now I'm too burnt out to jump back in to finding meaning. My instinct is that there is something, it is more than coincidence, and those feelings of being in touch with the divine are a subtle clue that there is reason for a generalised faith in humans having a soul and purpose.

I had an experience on my mission that I can't explain. It was during a PH blessing. Something really did happen,...and I had the conscience thought: "This is once in a lifetime experience. OPEN YOUR EYES and LOOK AROUND TO REMEMBER THIS." I did...I opened my eyes and I looked around the room.

I can't say there was "intelligence" communicated. I can't say anything other than there was a tangible, even unmistakable, power that somehow was in that room--and I know I was wide awake, in my right mind, and I have no other way to describe it other than heat. It didn't say: "The CHURCH IS TRUE.".....It didn't open my Spiritual Eyes and give me fantastic visions. The room was the way it was before, but there was something unseen going on, and I could sense it.

I can't discount it, but I don't know what it really means either. I know, for example, that the light our human eyes can perceive is a VERY small amount. Is there a possibility something just might exist we can't see?....

I don't know. But I lean to there being a soul. This experience, and others like it, as well as the circumstances, nudges me toward believing there is something else.

I do NOT, however, think Joseph Smith had everything figured out,...or anything. I think he was an opportunist. He went after what he felt he could.

My $0.02

I have had what I thought were spiritual experiences. Then, at least some were clearly shown to be nothing more than euphoric feelings caused by the normal(?) functions of a human body. I have concluded that they all were. I still find myself being drawn to certain aspects of church. However, I do not feel comfortable giving away my right to think and come to conclusions. I know that TBM's will maintain that they have given up nothing of the sort. However, if the only "proper" decision has been reached before I even get to think about the question, then there is something wrong. That is not a plan that will prepare me for anything more than eternal sock-sucking. Remembering that has helped me put my spiritual feelings in perspective and direct them into a direction that is more positive for me.

MoPag wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:08 pm

achilles wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:56 am
So...since my crash landing from Mormonism, I have developed a fascination with ayahuasca. I've seen some documentaries, and thought "Maybe I should prepare myself and do it." I'm on some guys email list who has a church down in Peru where they perform ayahuasca ceremonies, and supposedly most of them have deep, meaningful experiences that change their lives, give them clarity, etc.

https://ayahuascahealings.com/ayahuasca ... redvalley/

This is interesting. I would love to do something like this one day.

I'm still a spiritual person. It's the way I am; it works for me. And it is so much easier to embrace my spirituality since I stopped being TBM.

Everyone has their own path. Some people walk a spiritual path; some don't. Do what is best for you.

I'm in Peru right now but Ayahuasca isn't on the itinerary. One thing I learned from psilocybin mushrooms is that chemicals can produce very profound spiritual experiences. If Mormonism could deliver anything comparable I would never have questioned it. I have a testimony of psilocybin that I could never deny. My son tells me that Ayahuasca is a very different experience.

1smartdodog wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:36 pm I am left to conclude we know nothing and that will continue until something changes. In the meantime I suppose you just do the best you can.

This is pretty much my conclusion. I find it easy to doubt the concept of truth itself and even the validity of thinking of myself as a self. I can't imagine what sort of experience could possibly lead to more certainty for me at this point. But you have to act on something, even if all is vanity.

Whatever was or was not "real" before I began to question things has not changed at all. So I don't see any reason to get too worked up about it, though I never seem to tire of endlessly going over unanswerable philosophical questions in my mind.

This discussion reminds me of a bit in a book by Stephen Pinker where he recounts an experience - he was in a museum of sorts and there was a display of the universe - as he stood admiring the display some people approached and someone said to someone else in that party 'Looking at this, I can't belive that people deny there is a God'. The group departed, another group arrived, someone in the new group said to someone else in that group 'I can't believe that someone could see this and think that there is a God'.

I think the question of whether there is some sort of God is a different question than is the Mormon church anything it claims to be. Even in the minutest detail. Did Joseph have anything beyond a mushroom experiene. In my world that is the quetstion. So I conclude it is all bunk, every last bit of it. So to analyze the doctrine or make sense out of it for me is rather pointless.

But then there is the thought that is it possible to piggyback truth on to something that started as started as fraud? Is the church now in line with some sort of cosmic being even though its foundations were not so? Did it evolve into something?

But like I said in the OP no one knows anything to any degree that is relaibale. Like others have said it comes down to a personal belief or feeling. I am OK with that, until you try to tell me your feeling is fact or superior to an other.

When I die, and if there is a life after of some sort, I hope we get to ask questions and get answers. For now I best enjoy the life I have.

I would like to add to my post above that I'm 100% convinced the prophecies concerning then imminent 2nd coming of Jesus Christ made by Joseph Smith, Parley Pratt, and others were wrong. D&C 84:3-5, Joseph Smith's letter to Noah Sexton, and Parley Pratt's warning in the "Mormonism Unveiled" tract, all had deadlines, and have all been unfulfilled. Apologists may rationalize this, but they can't change the facts. I'm also 100% that Joseph Smith was a liar. Again, apologists may rationalize about 'carefully-worded denials', etc. but the facts are Joseph (and other leaders) said things that weren't true. Now God may have his own rules (reality doesn't always conform to rationality ) so maybe that's the way he wants it, but if it is, I think we would deserve an explanation. I prefer to believe in a God of Truth and Love. And may god bless us, every one.

P.S. I think Smart Dog's post above has some interesting thoughts. Thanks for sharing.

I had many metaphysical/spiritual experiences during my 40+ years in the TBM matrix. It was one of the things that kept my shelf from falling off the wall. I also experienced the opposite where I sincerely was seeking for answers and truth but had nothing occur, which added to my shelf. Those positive experiences were hard to grapple with as I learned the truth about the church. But I soon discovered they were common in most humans in many other religions and pseudo sciences. In fact I soon discovered postMo NOM that I could invoke those feelings when I was alone out in the wilderness marveling at nature.

I've been talking to friends about the shaman sweat lodge experiences with peyote and other spiritual experiences with natural psychedelics. Although a good buzz from booze and pot are fun sometimes, I'm looking forward to experiencing some of those more advanced journeys someday; not to find a god or other supernatural being, but just experience something metaphysical. I'll scrutinize my experiences just as I have my past experiences as a TBM. A continual journey of discovery!