I gone done and poked the hornets nest

[Emower]

So the other day I shared an article on my wall about people who say that apostates can leave the church but they cannot leave it alone. the link is below, I thought it was good. Maybe a little heavy, but encapsulated a little bit of how I feel a lot of the time.

https://medium.com/@brynnetg/they-can-l ... 98cc12d399

Boy did that set my mother off. She felt attacked by it, and she is angry. I wont go into the details of I said then she said, but I think our relationship is at a definite turning point. For the worse. If I said sorry, acted contrite, and said that that isnt what I really feel --- try to nuance it some way--- then I could probably turn it around. I dont want to. She keeps saying that she doesnt feel like the woman who wrote that did fair to her, accused her of things she hasn't said, and is generally wrong. I dont know how to express that it is this attitude that makes people write and share these types of articles.
I hate what the church does to people.

One of the most maddening things of all is that she keeps telling me that we cannot anthropomorphize the church. "The Church" is not capable of abandoning, hurting, or otherwise affecting people. It is a thing, that has stuff to offer. Nothing more.

Bullshit.

[Corsair]

This is a tough situation. It's also why I never told my mother, God rest her soul. One popular tactic with parents is to realize that you love them more than you are annoyed by the church.

I'm just shooting from the hip here, but I think you will want to find a way to redirect your mother. Don't defend the medium article even if it was insightful and you and I both agree with it. If the discussion needs to continue, change your framing and ask your mother how this has mischaracterized apostasy. Let her have her say especially since this is not a case where you need to win the argument. You already "won" just by having the rest of your life to live differently. But almost every generation scandalizes their parents in some way.

One of the most maddening things of all is that she keeps telling me that we cannot anthropomorphize the church. "The Church" is not capable of abandoning, hurting, or otherwise affecting people. It is a thing, that has stuff to offer. Nothing more.

This hard because it's your mom making this silly assertion. If it was some random guy on an "LDS Living" article then it might be worth unloading on him about how this is a standard he would not hold for any other organization. I'm making a guess that your mother speaks of the "National Abortion Rights League" or the "Gay & Lesbian Advocates & Defenders" or the "Democratic National Comittee" as monolithic and probably wicked organizations. But while it might be helpful or fun to argue with the Happiness Seekers on this point, your mother is probably not ready to comprehend this.

I know that you have children that will be expected to be baptized in the coming decade. I'm not sure how to deal with this. I certainly baptized two of mine as a full unbeliever. Among all the mistakes you can make in a mixed faith marriage, conceding to allow children's baptisms is far from the worst. I'm sure that your believing wife makes this more complicated also.

The easiest solution, weirdly enough, is to have lunch with sympathetic friends on a regular basis. It won't fix the problems with your mother or wife. It will give you the mental and moral fortitude to deal with them with integrity and more authenticity.

[achilles]

What is apostasy? Did Peter apostatize when he denied the Christ three times? Did Thomas apostatize when he doubted the resurrection? What about the poor of the Zoramites who were totally screwed by their church?

I think it is unfortunate that many Mormons take it very personally when the church's flaws are pointed out. They actually feel attacked. They think they're being persecuted (please.). The latest one making the rounds on Facebook is about the little lesbian girl whose testimony got cut off. Their church was put in a less favorable light in a handful of publications, and these people think they're some kind of martyrs. Ugh.

Anyway, I'm sorry about your situation. I like the deflecting idea. And now you know how sensitive she is about these kind of things. So vent to your peeps instead of to your member friends. It may not be worth the cost to reason with her.

[Thoughtful]

Thanks for sharing this article.

[deacon blues]

The problem is not that people anthropomophize the church. The problem is that people make it their god. They let it take the place of their conscience.

[oliver_denom]

One of the most maddening things of all is that she keeps telling me that we cannot anthropomorphize the church. "The Church" is not capable of abandoning, hurting, or otherwise affecting people. It is a thing, that has stuff to offer. Nothing more.

You could make this argument if the church was decentralized with little cohesion, but that's not what it's like. Could you imagine Wells Fargo making this argument in defense of opening two million fake accounts? "You can't anthropomorphize Wells Fargo. "Wells Fargo" is not capable of opening, closing, or otherwise affecting accounts. It is a thing that has stuff to offer. Nothing more."

Anything that church members do in response to official church policies, speeches, and proclamations can be described as actions by "the church". Thomas Monson's signature issue was "The Rescue". In addition to conference talks about following people around, not giving up when told to quit, and creating opportunities to bring up Mormonism to people who have left, there are correlation meetings, home and visiting teaching programs, EQ/HP/RS and missionary organizations whose sole purpose is knock on your door and bring you back to activity. If that isn't "the church", then what is? It's institutional, cultural, and systemic harassment.

[crossmyheart]

I have been processing this for the last week- especially your mom's issue with anthropomorphizing the church. Then I actually attended church this weekend and realized EVERYONE does it. The speakers, the Bishop, the Sunday School teacher and the RS teacher all committed the sin of anthropomorphizing the church at least once in their talks/lessons. So if they can do it, so can we!

[RubinHighlander]

"We are being persecuted and this confirms we are the one and only super special chosen ones."
That's a common theme in any religion with a one true church, our way is the only way, claim.

Or getting upset and defensive when anything, even remotely, goes against that dogmatic grain.

I think TBM loved ones are especially hypersensitive to anything anti or even just "not for, must be against."

Remember what happened to those folks at that newspaper that drew a cartoon of the Muslim's deity? TBMs may not be chopping off heads but it could come to that and there are fundamentalists break offs who feel they have God's permission to do really bad things.

The one true church/way claim and the "we are the most special chosen ones" narrative are the two biggest problems with religions and cults. It instantly puts all others in a lesser class, justifiably able to be mistreated, abused, looked down on or even killed in the name of their God.

I've kept my exit from my mom for the betterment of her own mental health, although our conversations have dabbled there and I've found myself talking on the NOMish secular edge. But so far so good I think.

[Deepthinker]

I’m sorry your mom reacted that way. I hope you can patch things up with her.

The comment about anthropomorphizing the church is silly. Churches as an organization can and do affect people. Why do church members say “the church has helped me so much in my life”, “the church is true”, or some other similar testimony statement that anthropomorphizes the church?

Governments and many other organizations can and do affect people either positively or negatively and we often talk about groups/organizations (not just people) doing just that.

[Emower]

One of the most maddening things of all is that she keeps telling me that we cannot anthropomorphize the church. "The Church" is not capable of abandoning, hurting, or otherwise affecting people. It is a thing, that has stuff to offer. Nothing more.

You could make this argument if the church was decentralized with little cohesion, but that's not what it's like. Could you imagine Wells Fargo making this argument in defense of opening two million fake accounts? "You can't anthropomorphize Wells Fargo. "Wells Fargo" is not capable of opening, closing, or otherwise affecting accounts. It is a thing that has stuff to offer. Nothing more."

Anything that church members do in response to official church policies, speeches, and proclamations can be described as actions by "the church". Thomas Monson's signature issue was "The Rescue". In addition to conference talks about following people around, not giving up when told to quit, and creating opportunities to bring up Mormonism to people who have left, there are correlation meetings, home and visiting teaching programs, EQ/HP/RS and missionary organizations whose sole purpose is knock on your door and bring you back to activity. If that isn't "the church", then what is? It's institutional, cultural, and systemic harassment.

Totally. I tried telling her this. But you cant reason with her. And she thinks the same of me, that I am beyond reason.

I have been processing this for the last week- especially your mom's issue with anthropomorphizing the church. Then I actually attended church this weekend and realized EVERYONE does it. The speakers, the Bishop, the Sunday School teacher and the RS teacher all committed the sin of anthropomorphizing the church at least once in their talks/lessons. So if they can do it, so can we!

I tried expressing this very thought as well, and she just got mad at me for throwing the past/present up in her grill. In fact that whole conversation just served to make her mad.

I knew that things werent going to be hunky-dory when I went down this road. But I thought we might be able to keep things civil. Doesnt look like that is going to happen.

[Emower]

The easiest solution, weirdly enough, is to have lunch with sympathetic friends on a regular basis. It won't fix the problems with your mother or wife. It will give you the mental and moral fortitude to deal with them with integrity and more authenticity.

I'm really glad I moved to an area where there are some people I can meet with who can relate to me. Thanks all you Phoenix NOMS!

[Korihor]

The easiest solution, weirdly enough, is to have lunch with sympathetic friends on a regular basis. It won't fix the problems with your mother or wife. It will give you the mental and moral fortitude to deal with them with integrity and more authenticity.

I'm really glad I moved to an area where there are some people I can meet with who can relate to me. Thanks all you Phoenix NOMS!

We got your 6

[Hagoth]

.

One of the most maddening things of all is that she keeps telling me that we cannot anthropomorphize the church. "The Church" is not capable of abandoning, hurting, or otherwise affecting people. It is a thing, that has stuff to offer. Nothing more.

Bullshit.

Like the way a bank can't kick you out of your house.