NOM

TL;DR - Nephew told his parents he is an Athiest. Parents are TBM along with all extended family except for closeted me. I tried to give good advice, and now I'm not sure if I should do more or what more I can do.

We had a family get together and my brother seemed distracted. After a few minutes of normal conversation including talking about our kids he mentioned that his mid-teenage son had decided he was an atheist. My parents and siblings don't know of my disaffection, they do call me the more moderate brother though regarding politics and church stuff. Hearing this made me sit up and take notice. Over the course of the rest of the night we had a nice discussion about it. It was very interesting to hear everyone's opinion on it, and after a year thinking about this stuff I was extremely prepared for my part in the discussion.

My brother is sad, but it seemed that he was more frustrated than sad. He spoke of "dumping" his son several times. (My brother is a good guy, a little rough sometimes, but I don't think he really meant he wants to abandon his son, just that he is frustrated and life would be easier if he didn't have an Athiest son). I told him that he is welcome to drop my nephew off at my house anytime either of them need it. Someone mentioned forcing my nephew to follow and I responded by asking if you really want him to follow the church if it is against his will. Someone said "Yes!" as a joke, but somewhat sincerely and got a laugh.

My stake missionary dad suggested sending the stake missionaries over and I thought "I'm sure more talking at him will help" so I turned the conversation to ask my brother if he has listened to what his son actually says about his beliefs; his response was that he had listened some, but his wife shuts my nephew down whenever he talks about his beliefs. I suggested that my brother avoid limiting my nephew's freedoms to the point where death or running away look like legitimately better options than being at home.

My brother agreed that my recommendations were wise, but was have an understandably difficult time with the situation. I gave him my support and told him to call or have my nephew call if they needed to talk to anyone. I hope they are able to get outside their Mormon training a bit and be understanding and respecting of a different viewpoint so my nephew isn't scarred for life by this.

My dad asked if my nephew was "dragging anyone down with him" and another brother replied, "yes, my son." So, I am concerned my Athiest nephew will be isolated and treated like an enemy. He is still young and may be pushing his parents buttons and not really be an Athiest, but I am inclined to let him be what he claims he is based on my disaffection.

Now I am not sure what to do. I could come out in solidarity with my disaffecting nephew. I could continue to play the part and possibly have greater influence. I could realize that not much has changed since yesterday and do nothing different. Any suggestions?

I love your story because I have my own story of an atheist nephew that starts out nearly identically (believing family, me as closeted unbeliever, lament over mouthy atheist nephew). The story diverges when the priesthood holders of the family decided to gather and discuss the best way to get the atheist nephew back on the strait and narrow way.

The usual recommendations came up for working with him, and admittedly the young man has not been a paragon of virtue. But he did successfully graduate high school and did earn his Eagle Scout. He has been a mouthy atheist and acting like a normal teenager wanting to engage in low level youthful rebellion.

After listening to a few minutes of suggestions I asked the assembled quorum my own question: "What is so compelling about the church that would attract a young man like <nephew>? What does he have to look forward to if he were to commit to the standard program of the LDS church?" Up until this point they had been rhetorically operating under the assumption of obligations that atheist nephew should be following with the LDS church as the implicit force for good on earth as it is heaven. They all soberly noted that the normal ideas and goals of the LDS church and the young adult program would drive him crazy.

This mostly killed the conversation and it ended with a request for me (a.k.a., closet unbeliever) to spend more time with the young man and help guide him towards righteousness since he already liked me. They did not comprehend why the young man liked me but I certainly have followed up and helped him move forward with education and career direction. I think he's going to turn out pretty well but it probably won't be in the LDS church.

Sorry to hear the nephew is the center of unwanted attention. Just be the friend he can't find elsewhere.

Linked wrote:Now I am not sure what to do. I could come out in solidarity with my disaffecting nephew. I could continue to play the part and possibly have greater influence. I could realize that not much has changed since yesterday and do nothing different. Any suggestions?

Just be the cool uncle -- the one who accepts without judging, who shows he cares because he actually listens when nephew talks about his beliefs or anything else. How well you listen is far more important than anything you say about yourself and your beliefs.

It just sounds like such a lonely place for this young man to be: dad is so frustrated he jokes about "dumping" him, other family members wanting to distance their own kids because they're worried about the contamination effect . . . from the sounds of it he could really do with one adult in the family who can validate him and love him just the way he is. If you're able to be that non-judgmental ear, when something does need to be said you'll be the one most likely to be heard. I think that's the key thing: let him know you're available and then listen.

Linked wrote:\My brother is sad, but it seemed that he was more frustrated than sad. He spoke of "dumping" his son several times.(My brother is a good guy, a little rough sometimes, but I don't think he really meant he wants to abandon his son, just that he is frustrated and life would be easier if he didn't have an Athiest son). I told him that he is welcome to drop my nephew off at my house anytime either of them need it. Someone mentioned forcing my nephew to follow and I responded by asking if you really want him to follow the church if it is against his will. Someone said "Yes!" as a joke, but somewhat sincerely and got a laugh.

I would have deadpanned, "11th Article of Fatih." As a practical matter I would have pointed out, they can force attendance, they can force compliance with various rituals and rules (when they are present to enforce such things), but they can't force belief and any attempts to do so will likely just cement him further against the church. Ask them if a Muslim (or if you don't want to us Islam as the boogeyman pick another religion) showed up and forced them to attend Mosque (and follow the accouterments of Islam) how quickly they'd become a faithful Muslim.

P.S. I'd also, privately, talk to my brother that his talk dumping his son is fraught with danger. Fair enough he's frustrated, but if such talk ever, ever, made it's way back to his son it'd communicate in a rather big way that he's love for his son is conditional. It's the sort of thing that can be devastating particularly to a teen that's going through a difficult time. It's unclear if he privately expressed this sentiment to you or if it was part of a group conversation but sentiments like that are best shared in confidence and not family get togethers.

Linked wrote: Now I am not sure what to do. I could come out in solidarity with my disaffecting nephew. I could continue to play the part and possibly have greater influence. I could realize that not much has changed since yesterday and do nothing different. Any suggestions?

You can support the nephew without having to out yourself or claim he's right which will likely get you lumped into the same 'other' group your nephew is being put into and may move in a direction you don't feel comfortable with yet. In reference to my above comments about trying to force him back into the fold, both a believer or non-believer can make the argument that if what you want is him to return to the fold trying to crush him under your thumb and 'force belief' is likely to just entrench him in resentment against what he's having his nose rubbed in.

Personally, as someone who's already out, I'd stand with my nephew though it might be a bit counter productive and I'd probably strain some relationships with mouthy comments like, "Old enough to be baptized, but not old enough to decide if he believes in god, eh?"

Fifi de la Vergne wrote:
Just be the cool uncle -- the one who accepts without judging, who shows he cares because he actually listens when nephew talks about his beliefs or anything else. How well you listen is far more important than anything you say about yourself and your beliefs.

I have an atheist family member, they've told me they've appreciated being able to have conversations with me that they aren't able to have with those living under the same roof as them. I'm not sure if they are out or not, but someone you nephew can be himself with instead of being slapped down unless he plays the part of the faithful Mormon is likely to be very appreciated. So I will second there is value in this route (even if it's not necessarily my gut instinct but then I'm in the open so playing the role of the moderate in the council of the faithful isn't open to me).

Edit: Consolidated two posts.

Korihor wrote:Sorry to hear the nephew is the center of unwanted attention. Just be the friend he can't find elsewhere.

That is definitely happening. I have helped point him towards some good educational and career goals and I take him out for coffee on irregular intervals. I think I have helped him understand that as long as he is living with his mother he needs to be a lot kinder to her about the church. I have pointed out what a caricature of an over-privileged slacker he is by being a snarky malcontent while his mother still pays for his food and a roof over his head. At this point he understands that he will never get the philosophical respect he wants from his believing family until he is financially independent and living successfully on his own with a job. That's a long, humility generating process for a recent high school grad.

Corsair wrote:I love your story because I have my own story of an atheist nephew that starts out nearly identically (believing family, me as closeted unbeliever, lament over mouthy atheist nephew). The story diverges when the priesthood holders of the family decided to gather and discuss the best way to get the atheist nephew back on the strait and narrow way.

The usual recommendations came up for working with him, and admittedly the young man has not been a paragon of virtue. But he did successfully graduate high school and did earn his Eagle Scout. He has been a mouthy atheist and acting like a normal teenager wanting to engage in low level youthful rebellion.

After listening to a few minutes of suggestions I asked the assembled quorum my own question: "What is so compelling about the church that would attract a young man like <nephew>? What does he have to look forward to if he were to commit to the standard program of the LDS church?" Up until this point they had been rhetorically operating under the assumption of obligations that atheist nephew should be following with the LDS church as the implicit force for good on earth as it is heaven. They all soberly noted that the normal ideas and goals of the LDS church and the young adult program would drive him crazy.

This mostly killed the conversation and it ended with a request for me (a.k.a., closet unbeliever) to spend more time with the young man and help guide him towards righteousness since he already liked me. They did not comprehend why the young man liked me but I certainly have followed up and helped him move forward with education and career direction. I think he's going to turn out pretty well but it probably won't be in the LDS church.

That's funny that we had the same experience. My nephew follows all the rules, but is not really on board with the rules. He follows the letter but never gets the spirit of the rule, on purpose. This may be a response to the fairly strict rules in their home. Hopefully he can find a moral basis for himself.

Thank you for sharing your experience, I hope I can be a similar influence/confidant for my nephew as you are to yours. And I intend to be the voice of reason in any councils on how to get him back in the fold.

Korihor wrote:Sorry to hear the nephew is the center of unwanted attention. Just be the friend he can't find elsewhere.

Thanks. We share some interests, so I hope we can make that happen. We built a computer together last weekend, so that's a good start I think.

Fifi de la Vergne wrote:

Linked wrote:Now I am not sure what to do. I could come out in solidarity with my disaffecting nephew. I could continue to play the part and possibly have greater influence. I could realize that not much has changed since yesterday and do nothing different. Any suggestions?

Just be the cool uncle -- the one who accepts without judging, who shows he cares because he actually listens when nephew talks about his beliefs or anything else. How well you listen is far more important than anything you say about yourself and your beliefs.

It just sounds like such a lonely place for this young man to be: dad is so frustrated he jokes about "dumping" him, other family members wanting to distance their own kids because they're worried about the contamination effect . . . from the sounds of it he could really do with one adult in the family who can validate him and love him just the way he is. If you're able to be that non-judgmental ear, when something does need to be said you'll be the one most likely to be heard. I think that's the key thing: let him know you're available and then listen.

I will try to do that. It is a lonely place, but he has always pushed his dad's buttons and they have never really had much in common. Dad's into sports, nephew is into reading, and many more things not in common. And I think he likes to get the reaction of being the misunderstood bad kid. I am hopeful that by actually listening that if this is just button pushing for him he will at least need to come up with his own moral basis, whether from the church or elsewhere. But from my admittedly shallow experience, once someone self-identifies as an athiest they don't come back.

I will do my best to be open.

Dravin wrote:

Linked wrote:\My brother is sad, but it seemed that he was more frustrated than sad. He spoke of "dumping" his son several times.(My brother is a good guy, a little rough sometimes, but I don't think he really meant he wants to abandon his son, just that he is frustrated and life would be easier if he didn't have an Athiest son). I told him that he is welcome to drop my nephew off at my house anytime either of them need it. Someone mentioned forcing my nephew to follow and I responded by asking if you really want him to follow the church if it is against his will. Someone said "Yes!" as a joke, but somewhat sincerely and got a laugh.

I would have deadpanned, "11th Article of Fatih." As a practical matter I would have pointed out, they can force attendance, they can force compliance with various rituals and rules (when they are present to enforce such things), but they can't force belief and any attempts to do so will likely just cement him further against the church. Ask them if a Muslim (or if you don't want to us Islam as the boogeyman pick another religion) showed up and forced them to attend Mosque (and follow the accouterments of Islam) how quickly they'd become a faithful Muslim.

P.S. I'd also, privately, talk to my brother that his talk dumping his son is fraught with danger. Fair enough he's frustrated, but if such talk ever, ever, made it's way back to his son it'd communicate in a rather big way that he's love for his son is conditional. It's the sort of thing that can be devastating particularly to a teen that's going through a difficult time. It's unclear if he privately expressed this sentiment to you or if it was part of a group conversation but sentiments like that are best shared in confidence and not family get togethers.

Linked wrote: Now I am not sure what to do. I could come out in solidarity with my disaffecting nephew. I could continue to play the part and possibly have greater influence. I could realize that not much has changed since yesterday and do nothing different. Any suggestions?

You can support the nephew without having to out yourself or claim he's right which will likely get you lumped into the same 'other' group your nephew is being put into and may move in a direction you don't feel comfortable with yet. In reference to my above comments about trying to force him back into the fold, both a believer or non-believer can make the argument that if what you want is him to return to the fold trying to crush him under your thumb and 'force belief' is likely to just entrench him in resentment against what he's having his nose rubbed in.

Personally, as someone who's already out, I'd stand with my nephew though it might be a bit counter productive and I'd probably strain some relationships with mouthy comments like, "Old enough to be baptized, but not old enough to decide if he believes in god, eh?"

Fifi de la Vergne wrote:
Just be the cool uncle -- the one who accepts without judging, who shows he cares because he actually listens when nephew talks about his beliefs or anything else. How well you listen is far more important than anything you say about yourself and your beliefs.

I have an atheist family member, they've told me they've appreciated being able to have conversations with me that they aren't able to have with those living under the same roof as them. I'm not sure if they are out or not, but someone you nephew can be himself with instead of being slapped down unless he plays the part of the faithful Mormon is likely to be very appreciated. So I will second there is value in this route (even if it's not necessarily my gut instinct but then I'm in the open so playing the role of the moderate in the council of the faithful isn't open to me).

Edit: Consolidated two posts.

I thought about saying that we followed the plan where we don't force people in response to the desire to force him into conforming, but didn't have it ready in time.

This whole conversation was public, with my nephews cousin's all around. Not ideal, but that is how my brother handles stuff like this. I may call my brother this week to talk with him briefly. To my brother and sis-in-law's credit they did visit a real therapist to get advice on how to deal with this, though the therapist's recommendations of give him as much freedom as possible, listen to him, etc. fell on partially deaf ears, and was ridiculed last night by other members of my family who prefer the scriptures to psychology. I think my brother values my opinion and my reinforcing what the therapist said hopefully will help him do the right thing for his son.

My wife is not ready for me to be out, so I should probably put her needs first as long as my nephew is safe. But I can certainly be an accepting uncle, and I am definitely cool. I worry that if I am too accepting that my sis-in-law will restrict our communication, so that could be another fine line.

Thanks for your advice and thoughts for my nephew.