NOM

So, I listened to a Bill Reel podcast. He mentioned the Liturgist Podcast. I am quite taken by it after one listen.

I listened to an episode called lost and found. One host mentioned an experience he had with a pastor during a retreat. He said after he confronted the pastor using what he knows of science and fully admitting his athiesm. The pastor lovingly told him he appreciated all he had to share. Then the pastor mentioned taking all the ideas we don't know, or don't have evidence for and putting them in a box labelled God- and leaving it at that. I think I need to do more of that. My big challenge is putting the spiritual/divine experiences I have had and finding a place for them. I feel some of these experiences are probably my brain caught up in a bath of neuro-chemicals, but other times I have no explanation (my science teacher brain does not like this).

I am trying to rebuild what I believe, and it is much harder than what I don't believe (I figured that out after just a few months). The step of belief is taking years, I am finally starting to feel something close to lacing up my shoes...

Any advice on reconstructing what you believe. I recognize this is a broad idea, but I appreciate hearing your experiences.

I told people I was cleaning out my fridge. Whatever smelled, looked, or felt funny was going in the trash. There hasn't been a lot past god that has gone back into the fridge. But it feels really really good to not have so much in there. Some people are terrified of having unanswered questions. I realized that there is an intense beauty in not having an answer.
I like to take a parsimonious view on god, the simpler the better.

I am bothered by having to maintain a conception of God that is so dramatically different than what is openly taught on Sunday. If I have to keep a believable God in mind then He/She/It ends up looking like a version of my own psyche. And I think this probably explains religion in general. The character of every congregation will be a combination of the found, local leaders, and general membership.

As a result, it seems more useful to simply find the community that works best for you. Finding the "one true church" seems more and more like a fools errand. We are all better off establishing our own goals then joining that group that best supports those goals. There may be heretics that survive within the LDS church as a result.

Raylan Givens wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:13 pm Then the pastor mentioned taking all the ideas we don't know, or don't have evidence for and putting them in a box labelled God- and leaving it at that.

I have a bit of a problem with this "god in a box" concept because that god's influence is constantly shrinking as science continues to answer these "we don't know" ideas. Why is it so hard to just say: "I don't know" ?

I'd be curious to know what that pastor thinks about the influence of that ever-shrinking god.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:58 amI have a bit of a problem with this "god in a box" concept because that god's influence is constantly shrinking as science continues to answer these "we don't know" ideas. Why is it so hard to just say: "I don't know" ?

I'd be curious to know what that pastor thinks about the influence of that ever-shrinking god.

I like the idea of god in a box. Sort of like a box of legos or an erector set. I can build god up to my specifications and details any time I want, then If I don't like him/her/it, I can rebuild. I can build a functional god that shoots lasers out of his ass and kills innocent children through starvation, earthquakes, or Justin Bieber albums. If that god is too cruel, I can rebuild a loving, caring, spiritual breast feeding motherly god who cuddles me at night, tucks me in, and then sings angelic versions of Sound Garden albums.

Tired of a mean and nasty god? Rebuild? Tired of a nice motherly god with awesome eternal spirit child bearing hips? Rebuild?

God in a box has endless possibilities!

No advice from me. Too burnt, too tired. Maybe in a few years I'll try and re-establish my relationship with the divine.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:58 am

Raylan Givens wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:13 pm Then the pastor mentioned taking all the ideas we don't know, or don't have evidence for and putting them in a box labelled God- and leaving it at that.

I have a bit of a problem with this "god in a box" concept because that god's influence is constantly shrinking as science continues to answer these "we don't know" ideas. Why is it so hard to just say: "I don't know" ?

I'd be curious to know what that pastor thinks about the influence of that ever-shrinking god.

I was going to say this exactly.

After my years in the cult, I think the only thing that salvaged my faith was the fact I'd had it before I joined. When the shelf crashed, I remember a fleeting thought that if THIS church was so dishonest, maybe ALL of it was fake. It's terrifying. It's a lonely thought. I had always separated my faith in a higher power (a creator, etc.) from whatever church I attended to worship, but the cult nearly destroyed my lifelong beliefs.

The only way I got through it was to consciously separate my beliefs that we cannot see who or what created us, but something with far more mettle than we have must have caused this world and the life on it to happen. I have always thought of it as ephemeral rather than more solid or something that can be seen (the idea what we get our highest and best bodies back in the CK never made sense to me - I don't think the mortal body is anything but a vehicle to get us around on Earth).

The church (or churches) I grew up in were not fundamentalist, but were conservative by many standards. We were given the teachings that related to values and the ways we should treat each other, and the Old Testament was more or less seen as metaphorical, or folklore in nature. We assumed science was one of the many things humans learned as our minds developed throughout the ages, and nobody ever suggested evolution was wrong-headed. We had no rules about gays (but to be candid - i also never heard of those things until I grew up).

Now, I am far less enthusiastic about "organized religion" (I also understand how some people distinguish between that and non-belief). I attend far less than I've ever attended. But one of my first acts as the shelf collapsed was to find a church that put me back in touch with the way life had been before the cult. I needed that touchstone. I needed to feel the same sense of comfort I'd always felt during worship services back then. It was still that way for me, and I am thankful for that. I don't want to lose my faith in God, but I know it was badly dented in the train wreck called the LDS Church.

I'm in the "don't know" camp. Further, I don't care. I think the question has no relevance to my daily life and the choices that I want to make, and I see zero reliable ways to find out the answer. I'm happy to just keep following my own moral compass and living true to myself. I'll figure out the rest after I die if there's anything there to figure out.

I remember hearing, as a child, the Protestant view of God: bigger than the universe, small enough to fit in your heart. It was when I was a teen that I heard of the anthropomorphic God explicitly and a little forcibly taught in seminary.

I remember being taught the basic teachings of Jesus, when I was small. You know. The ones in the Primary songs. The Jesus in the New Testament. I remember thinking, "yes! This is how I want to live!". I was born again at the age of six. I thought my baptism redundant.

I had spiritual experiences, particularly in my adulthood. Particularly, as a mother. I don't think my mind was bathed in chemicals for a lot of these. So, I believe in something.

What I've done as a searching NOM is explore religions. I spend some time exploring a religion until I find something that doesn't fit well, then I move on. The longest I've stuck with a religion is about five months. I've circled back to religions I've left behind, but then move on. Yes, it's frustrating. I want to find a spiritual home.

I'm currently on Taoism for about the third time. I'm coming up on five months, very soon, and am still very satisfied with it.

The difference, this time around, is I've learned to separate the philosophy from the religion. In most religions, I like the philosophy, but once deities, magic and organizing the belief system into a religion, it starts to get creepy and evil. So, I am just exploring the philosophies and stopping at the threshold of the religion.

Again with the Primal. Frankly, there's a lot about our religion I find harmful. However, this religion is primal for me. I'm not entirely sure how engaged I'll stay with it. Frankly, it's difficult to find a community of Taoists. Much easier to find Mormons. I kind of think I'll be involved in Mormonism as much as comfortable, but listen to the talks and lessons with a smile, because I believe about 1% of it and it doesn't have a hold on me.

That's my technique for all of this.

One of my biggest realizations as I began to question my faith is that invoking God doesn't really answer any of the fundamental questions. At least in Mormonism, the infinite regress of generations of gods to dodges some of the issues raised by adding such a being to the equation (sort of). But any definition of deity seems to do nothing more than create even more implausible mysteries without really addressing the original ones. More of a smoke screen to further obscure them than a key to understand them.

I still like the idea of God, though when I think about what it seems God most likely is not (such as a being who intervenes in the world, for starters), the more God's definition becomes so vague as to be useless. If there's truly a transcendent God whose attributes don't just happen to reflect the reasoning of primates, I guess there must be an afterlife where such things are revealed. If only the concept of an afterlife didn't also muddy the waters further rather than helping explain anything.

That said, I don't know that I will ever tire of investigating and thinking about such things, and it's an understatement to say that I would find it exciting to somehow start rebuilding a durable version of the certainty I had before.

I have heard the Liturgist mentioned favorably before. I will have to try that one out.

So I'm the only one that likes the "build a god out of box" theology?

C'mon, we can create gods that shoot lasers out of their kolobian keester!

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:31 pm So I'm the only one that likes the "build a god out of box" theology?

C'mon, we can create gods that shoot lasers out of their kolobian keester!

Actually, no. My post was getting too long.

I create my own deities all the time. Kind of like superheroes with super powers.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:31 pm So I'm the only one that likes the "build a god out of box" theology?

C'mon, we can create gods that shoot lasers out of their kolobian keester!

Lego god sounds pretty cool. After all, you've probably heard all the talk about how god was really actually created in man's image. Dunno about the lasers though.

Everything is awesome!

But... Will he(she, it?) send a flood of Legos to drown us all if we piss him(her, it?) off? Or is it just butt-lazers all the time?

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:31 pm So I'm the only one that likes the "build a god out of box" theology?

C'mon, we can create gods that shoot lasers out of their kolobian keester!

I have programmed cheesy computer games that had laser shooting super beings. It's hard to find them worthy of worship once you have created them yourself and actually know how they operate. It's more like the affection I have for my children.

Corsair wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:47 pm

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:31 pm So I'm the only one that likes the "build a god out of box" theology?

C'mon, we can create gods that shoot lasers out of their kolobian keester!

I have programmed cheesy computer games that had laser shooting super beings. It's hard to find them worthy of worship once you have created them yourself and actually know how they operate. It's more like the affection I have for my children.

He has a point.

glass shelf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:03 pm I'm in the "don't know" camp. Further, I don't care. I think the question has no relevance to my daily life and the choices that I want to make, and I see zero reliable ways to find out the answer. I'm happy to just keep following my own moral compass and living true to myself. I'll figure out the rest after I die if there's anything there to figure out.

I think being true to yourself is the best thing we can do. Thanks for sharing.

Ghost wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:05 pm I still like the idea of God, though when I think about what it seems God most likely is not (such as a being who intervenes in the world, for starters), the more God's definition becomes so vague as to be useless. If there's truly a transcendent God whose attributes don't just happen to reflect the reasoning of primates, I guess there must be an afterlife where such things are revealed. If only the concept of an afterlife didn't also muddy the waters further rather than helping explain anything.

I tend to think of God, or that concept as more of a scientist, hands off just letting things move forward. Bound by natural laws. I know people who blame God/Satan for everything good or bad in their life. I can't go there. I think that happens because we live in a world of physical laws- and our bodies and minds are easily pierced.

I read a book called Mr G (Alan Lightman?) years ago. It really changed God from being like me, so something more.

Still wrapping my head around what is my next step. I think it will be to cut some more strings and make more boundaries then get on my bike and make that my church for a while.

Having given up on the God-of-the-gaps, I have chosen to redirect my worshipful feelings to what is between the gaps. If this magnificent universe could come about by its own natural laws and properties I think it deserves more awe and respect than a clay-molding, lightning-bolt-throwing guy in space.

Did someone/thing flip the switch to get it started? We have no way of knowing. Will anything be waiting for us on the "other side?" Ditto.

One thing I'm pretty certain of, after sitting through this week's Last Days GD lesson, is that the idea of an anthropomorphic deity who is determined to inflict his children with unimaginable pain and horror, simply because they weren't impressed enough by his threats, would have to be a sad and minor character in such an awe-inspiring cosmos. Yes, the universe between the gaps can be harsh, but it doesn't get jealous, throw tantrums and invent creative ways to specifically make us suffer.

Why does there have to be a God? If our questions have no answers why is it then it must be God?"

After sifting through all the debris from the shelf and exploring many religions, philosophies and science I have come to the point where there is nothing in my God box. There is just no evidence that God ever existed. Warm fuzzy feelings, ancient scripture and relying on faith don't add up to any shred of evidence that there is a God. I wish there was a God. And I've not ruled God out completely I just remain unconvinced. Show me evidence.