NOM

In writing two recent posts, I've realized there are a lot of ways we give the church or its leaders too much power. For example, my former bishop knowingly issued my abusive (now) ex-husband a temple recommend and had him bless the Sacrament every Sunday from the day I asked for the divorce until the day he finally left three months later. I've have been upset by that, but then I realized, my ex could have refused those privileges. He wouldn't, because he's abusive and abusers don't generally do that, but he could have.

Another example is couples being married in the temple and excluding family in the process, because they're afraid of negative gossip. It seems to me the really shameful thing is excluding family from the wedding. A couple should be able to honorably wed civilly in order to include family and that's just a plain fact. I broached the idea that if a couple is completely open about why they are marrying civilly that would eliminate a large portion of the negative gossip, then that could catch on and it would be another way we could take back some power.

I'm not talking about changing doctrines or policy. Even if the wedding thing catches on, it's the church's business when and/or if it decides to change.

So, with those two possible scenarios on the table, what are some small ways we could simply non-violently non-cooperate because the rule--even though it may have doctrinal backing--is just plain overly controlling?

Give It Time wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:51 pm. A couple should be able to honorably wed civilly in order to include family and that's just a plain fact.

That's what Mrs. Hagoth and I did. Her entire family except for one sister are nevermos, so we were married in a park and then again in the temple a year later. We didn't bother to explain to anyone. In the end everyone got to see the wedding they wanted. There was a lot of push back from local leaders (including her bishop who finally begrudgingly agreed to perform the ceremony rather than allow a lesser minister do it) and several refusals to use Salt Lake locations that are associated with the church or its edifices because they "don't want to support that kind of thing."

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:04 pm

Give It Time wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:51 pm. A couple should be able to honorably wed civilly in order to include family and that's just a plain fact.

That's what Mrs. Hagoth and I did. Her entire family except for one sister are nevermos, so we were married in a park and then again in the temple a year later. We didn't bother to explain to anyone. In the end everyone got to see the wedding they wanted. There was a lot of push back from local leaders (including her bishop who finally begrudgingly agreed to perform the ceremony rather than allow a lesser minister do it) and several refusals to use Salt Lake locations that are associated with the church or its edifices because they "don't want to support that kind of thing."

I'm glad you did this. Although my ex and his father weren't close, he did express hurt at not only the fact his father was shut out, but that it was pointed out by the sealer while we were in the sealing room, before he started his advice portion of the ceremony.

Another area​ I think people can reclaim power is in visiting teaching. A rather common scenario is one or both of the VTs is a SAHM with at least one, and many times several, young child/ren who can't be left unattended. There are many times during these visits that the visiting children wreak unholy havoc in the home of the person being taught. So often the remark from the person being taught is a resigned sigh and stating that they are doing service for the VT.

Once again, this is a situation where the VT invites themselves over. A person shouldn't be obligated to open their home to an uninvited guest who needs to have their children in tow and said children then trash the home. This is an example where the parties involved should be able to sit down and say, "let's deviate from the standard program, shall we?" If a workable solution can't be found, no harm, no foul. A person should be able to opt out and the issue be revisited in six months or so.

There's lots of ways to take back our power, once our minds are open to it.

Couple of weeks back, we had a ward "challenge" to give out pass along cards that very week to someone we know, and report back on our experiences. When the WML tried to give me one, I just said, "no thanks, I'm good." Today was the day to report on our experiences, and instead I'm home, and writing about taking back my power here on NOM.

It's quite exhilarating when you recognize that you've given them all sorts of power, and you can take it back so easily.

First of all you have to get out of the Mormon thought pattern about God granting the church leaders the power. No, that power is yours to keep or give away. I think there is some psychology behind this that it might help to be aware of. We are all born as helpless babies, and our parents have total power over us. Think about the process of growing up. We are born into a situation where we have no power and grow up with lack of power as the norm. But our parents usually gradually teach us to take some of the power as we are capable. They give the power to us, sometimes forcing it on us because they just get tired of doing everything for us. But often parents don't finish giving us all the power in our own life's, but try to maintain some control. Most of us at some point had to rebel against parental authority and finish taking our power. "No, I am not going to the university my parents went to just because they want me to." But when we do it, we feel guilty. Kind of like Rapunsel in Tangled.

But the church never gives us our power, but convinces us that God has the power and it is through the church that God manifests the power in our lives. We cannot just commit our lives to Christ, but the church has to do it for us by baptizing us. Other religions teach this as more of an internal change, a change we have the power to make, symbolized by the baptism.

So, it takes rebelling against the church because it is unwilling to give us the power that we actually own. And like Rapunsel, we will have mixed feelings and guilt, but it really can be the best day ever.

alas wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:13 am So, it takes rebelling against the church because it is unwilling to give us the power that we actually own. And like Rapunsel, we will have mixed feelings and guilt, but it really can be the best day ever.

I agree that rebelling is necessary, however I think there are times one's judgment can be so clouded by the need to take power that the decisions made aren't always in the best interest of the individual. Sometimes there are mixed feelings, guilt, and regret.

Do our thoughts, words, or actions demonstrate an incomplete shift in power? If we continuously talk about the church, ex spouse, former employers, or any other situation where we've been wronged or hurt have we really taken back our power?

For a long time now I feel like the church has no power over me anymore, yet it still occupies a lot of space and emotional energy in my head. Is that power I need take back? At one point can I just move on and not worry, think, or talk about the church anymore?

Or am I just a victim who loves to let it continue?

Does shifting power and control start the healing process? How long should we heal and how visible will our scars be?

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:35 am For a long time now I feel like the church has no power over me anymore, yet it still occupies a lot of space and emotional energy in my head. Is that power I need take back? At one point can I just move on and not worry, think, or talk about the church anymore?

As long as the people I love are still in, the church will be a part of my life for the very long and foreseeable future. I believe the same goes for many here, but I feel I have much of my power back even though the church remains a large part of my life. If the whole family just gets up and leaves, well, maybe then I don't have to think about it too much. But until that day comes, I'm only going to be in as much as I have to be. That still leaves me some power, at least as I see it. But it's different for everybody.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:35 am Do our thoughts, words, or actions demonstrate an incomplete shift in power? If we continuously talk about the church, ex spouse, former employers, or any other situation where we've been wronged or hurt have we really taken back our power?

For a long time now I feel like the church has no power over me anymore, yet it still occupies a lot of space and emotional energy in my head. Is that power I need take back? At one point can I just move on and not worry, think, or talk about the church anymore?

Or am I just a victim who loves to let it continue?

Does shifting power and control start the healing process? How long should we heal and how visible will our scars be?

Good questions.

Yes to the first. If you continually talk about how you have been wronged, that shows incomplete healing. But you also cannot rush the process. Just as physical healing takes time, emotional healing takes time. Talking about it is a necessary step in processing what happened, so don't feel that talking about it is bad and you should force yourself to stop. Just let your instinct take over and do what feels healing.

Second paragraph of questions. Time and processing will help you reach the point where you don't spend as much thought and energy on church stuff. You have taken back *your* power back already, but the injuries need to finish healing. So, no, you don't have to banish all thoughts of church in order to finish the process of taking your power back.

And it is sort of hard when we have family still in the church. There is the power over them that still is in the hands of the church, and this slows the healing process because our loved ones are getting hurt. So, we have to accept that we cannot protect our loved ones. This is hard, because it means accepting that they control their own lives.

No, you are not a victim who loves letting the victimization continue. You love family, who are still being victimized.

How long you should heal and how visible the scars will be depend. How badly were you injured? How long did you spend being injured? How many repeated injuries were there?

Someone like me, who was sexually abused and then blamed by church leaders for it, well that is a deeper than average injury. Someone who grew up gay, that is a deeper injury. Someone who spent 50 years and gave up their dreams for the church has repeated injuries over a long period of time. Someone who deeply believed will feel more betrayed than someone who was skeptical of the history all along. So, how long healing takes depends on how serious the injury.

So, your injuries are going to take as long to heal as what they take. Be patient, but keep plugging along.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:35 am For a long time now I feel like the church has no power over me anymore, yet it still occupies a lot of space and emotional energy in my head. Is that power I need take back? At one point can I just move on and not worry, think, or talk about the church anymore?

Or am I just a victim who loves to let it continue?

Does shifting power and control start the healing process? How long should we heal and how visible will our scars be?

Yes... I could have written this, too. I FEEL I am a victim. But, I AM NOT. I will NOT give them this. No. I have to take back my power--even if it's hard to do. You can too, RR. It is time to start healing.

It is so hard, to take back our power. But, is there no other way?

There's no other way.

Enough wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:33 pm

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:35 am For a long time now I feel like the church has no power over me anymore, yet it still occupies a lot of space and emotional energy in my head. Is that power I need take back? At one point can I just move on and not worry, think, or talk about the church anymore?

Or am I just a victim who loves to let it continue?

Does shifting power and control start the healing process? How long should we heal and how visible will our scars be?

Yes... I could have written this, too. I FEEL I am a victim. But, I AM NOT. I will NOT give them this. No. I have to take back my power--even if it's hard to do. You can too, RR. It is time to start healing.

It is so hard, to take back our power. But, is there no other way?

There's no other way.

One can be a recipient of abuse, even if they aren't a "victim".

At church we hate the idea of victims. They choose to be offended or hurt, after all. However, if we actively and assertively note how many people are recipients of abuse at some point I believe that will come back on the abusers.

Wow, this thread went farther and deeper than anticipated. My moment of realizing I was taking back my power was my uncle's recent death. For some reason, either my cousins or my brother didn't notify the children of my father for three weeks. When we asked our brother for the contact information for our cousins, he replied with the inquiry, is it really our business.

At first, I felt hurt and shut out. Then I realized that my cousin wouldn't have notified our side of the family if she and her siblings didn't want condolences from us. Now, I don't know what's going on with my brother. I think he just forgot and was embarrassed to be found out about dropping the ball. So, I got my brain, my tablet, my fingers and my phone and I found my cousins. They were happy to hear from me and wanted to hear from my siblings. I realized that night, I gave my brother too much power and, since then, I've been looking for other ways to take back my power.

Nothing so deep, important and appropriate as Red Ryder's questions, but I imagine I would have gotten there, eventually.

I'm currently struggling with this in my ward. What preceded this was about a two month period of enjoying a successful run at this solo mom thing. I could see the finish line approaching. There came a moment when my ex made it very clear that we have been scaring certain neighbors and those neighbors have gone running to him in some so sort of effort to get me back to hiding and transmitting shame. Since my ex didn't tell me who his sources are, I brought in the bishop. Who was and is as stand-up a guy in this situation as it was possible to be, but it's still not pleasant.

So, my current situation is one where I was claiming my power and it scared some people. I think alas's input is terrific. What I've been doing is I use the great God, Google, and I ask said deity the Buddhist approach to handling situations like what I encounter at church. Google has not let me down, yet. I get perspectives and approaches to deescalate the situation.

Another thing I do, is there have been times I've felt the drama/pressure get too high. This is what I do. I take a break from Mormonism for twenty-four hours. No NOM or other DAMU sites. No church websites. No Facebook. If I get an email from the ward/church, it resets the clock. If someone from the ward calls about ward business, it resets the clock. It someone talks about missions or some doctrinal point, it resets the clock. I live in Utah County and that's about the best I can do. For that time period, I define myself some other way and call myself a Taoist, Buddhist, Zen Buddhist for that period. I spend time learning more about those philosophies.

Those Mormonism vacations are my private thing. When I come back from them, I can tell the church has lost some of it's hold on me. So, taking an intentional step back is something I do to detach some of the electrodes in my brain. Red Ryder's, those small respites I take were actually inspired by one of your sessions of getting off of social media during conference. When I come back, I do a little more processing as needed.

So, if you'll excuse me, as I mentioned, I have a thorny problem with my neighbors and I'm going to go consult the sages. I'll probably check in later. If I'm gone for more than 24 hours, I've gone Zen.

I used to think being a NOM was about taking back power - doing it on my terms, defining mormonism as I see fit while advancing spiritually.

Now I don't really see myself as trying to find my place in mormonism, taking back my power is more about not accepting mormonism in belief or action. And at this stage I am utterly apathetic to spirituality.

I've always been a thinker, and I honestly listen much more than talk most of the time. In conversations with family and friends its easy (mostly) to listen others talk about church related things like the Plan of Salvation, and the temple, etc. But if I were to bring up evolution, or history, or secular philosophy, I would probably just stifle the conversation. I can enjoy (sort of) listening to people talk about stuff I don't believe in, why does it seem so awkward for others to do so.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:28 pm I've always been a thinker, and I honestly listen much more than talk most of the time. In conversations with family and friends its easy (mostly) to listen others talk about church related things like the Plan of Salvation, and the temple, etc. But if I were to bring up evolution, or history, or secular philosophy, I would probably just stifle the conversation. I can enjoy (sort of) listening to people talk about stuff I don't believe in, why does it seem so awkward for others to do so.

This is such a good point. At first when I heard damaging doctrines, I'd get really upset, because I know how damaging they can be. As I've started to take a different philosophical path, I can actually enjoy a lot of talks and lessons at church. I find it interesting to listen to them and know I no longer believe them. I find myself smiling at the realization they don't have a hold on me. Every now and then I will hear a very good and uplifting point and I enjoy that, too.

However, you're absolutely right. They should be able to hear our side, as well.

I have my theories as to why they won't listen, but I'd rather not engage in conjecture and projection. I'd rather ask them directly.

Giving them the money that I think they (Church) has earned, not what they demand.

Not allowing others to assume my mantel as a father (I am thinking of ordinances for children).

Deciding when I worship and for how long.

Deciding what doctrines are sound with my own personal morals.

These are all personal choices, I think for most of us, the change is only for ourselves. I am trying to be okay with only being able to control what I will do and not worry about what the Church will do. Not easy.

Raylan Givens wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:32 pm Giving them the money that I think they (Church) has earned, not what they demand.

Not allowing others to assume my mantel as a father (I am thinking of ordinances for children).

Deciding when I worship and for how long.

Deciding what doctrines are sound with my own personal morals.

These are all personal choices, I think for most of us, the change is only for ourselves. I am trying to be okay with only being able to control what I will do and not worry about what the Church will do. Not easy.

This is excellent and I can personally testify to the truthfulness of the bolded portion.

So many really good comments here.

The opposite of love is not hate, which is still an active engagement with the object. The opposite of love is indifference, or apathy. When I stop giving energy to the church, then I have taken back my power -- whether I am attending or not. Before, when I was all-in, in my seat every Sunday and trying desperately to check off all the boxes but feeling hopelessly "unworthy" because I never could -- I felt powerless. Yes, there were talks about grace but they were few and far between. Yes, I remember hearing that all I had to do was give my best and the Lord would make up the rest -- but I knew darn well that most days I was falling short of my best. And I got more and more discouraged. Realizing that the whole edifice was built on a faulty foundation allowed me to stop caring whether I was living up to someone else's arbitrary definition of "worthy."

I think the path for getting to the point of indifference is different for everyone and definitely harder for some, depending on personality and circumstance. Although I married into a multi-generation LDS family, there is a range of activity levels and they are fairly accepting of everyone. My family of birth has never been LDS -- that all makes it easier for me to leave. On the other hand, my spouse and eldest son are still 100% active and believing. I think my son and I are going to be okay -- we will find out in a few months when he gets home from his mission. I am very pessimistic about my marriage at this point, but the faith issue brought it to a head more than it caused the initial rift.

Taking back our power to me means recognizing that we are indeed agents, free to act and not to be acted upon. Sometimes we may choose to go to places and participate in things we would rather not, but we choose to anyway, because of other values that are important to us. It's empowering to recognize that the choice is ours, even if we choose the less appealing option. You'd rather not wear the garment, but it would break your spouse's heart or cause unbearable friction. So for now, you choose to wear the darn thing.

These are just some thoughts. It is how I reframe my view of situations where I feel constrained. I could act differently and blow relationships and family peace apart -- but I choose not to. The power for me comes from recognizing that I am in fact making a choice, even though it's not my preferred choice.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:35 am Do our thoughts, words, or actions demonstrate an incomplete shift in power? If we continuously talk about the church, ex spouse, former employers, or any other situation where we've been wronged or hurt have we really taken back our power?

For a long time now I feel like the church has no power over me anymore, yet it still occupies a lot of space and emotional energy in my head. Is that power I need take back? At one point can I just move on and not worry, think, or talk about the church anymore?

Or am I just a victim who loves to let it continue?

Does shifting power and control start the healing process? How long should we heal and how visible will our scars be?

I see what you're saying, and I have a similar feeling about the emotional and mental energy I'm still spending on the church, even after resigning. I see it as healing and dealing with PTSD. I also feel we are a growing group of victims who are in varying stages of recognizing the control and abuse, and are offering support to each other as well as being vocal about something that can no longer be kept hidden. Just look at the degree to which the outcries about the cult have expanded in the past several years? This momentum has to continue, because so many others are still being hurt.

The church now has no power over me, but I have power over it. I am officially out. I am speaking up. I've made people aware that I resigned and that I have a strong faith in God and Christ. It infuriates me that the cult controls its members to the point they think it is the ONLY faith.