NOM

Posted: **Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:35 am**

I am becoming more and more convinced that either these GAs are stupid and dont' know their own history, or they intentionally accept it and justify it. A third possibility is they are trapped and knowingly lie as their only option.

I've thought about all of these possibilities, and am convinced they all suck. ALL of them.

I feel sad for these guys! Despite the anger I feel at having my own life tampered with through my LDS birth and upbringing, I would HATE to be one of these guys. What a horrible life.....for the money and power they get, they have to either be uninformed, stupid, liars or ALL OF THE ABOVE.

Posted: **Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:45 am**

I don't quite know what to say. I grew up in the stake where a lot of the GAs and the prophet lived. I understand the anger expressed on NOM. I understand the hurt and disillusionment. I get it, but I've known and liked our leaders. I've known and liked their offspring and relatives. I've seen people intentionally try to publicly humiliate them and I've seen them handle it with marvelous class.

They've been kind. The Q15 go to tithing settlement. I have it on good authority a certain very unpopular in the DAMU apostle cleans the chapel when it's his turn. I've been to their homes and, yes there was still the fishbowl element, but their homes seemed to be happy.

Even though it's grudgingly given, I appreciate the empathy for our leaders. Much as I'd like to knock their heads together and get them working on solving some serious problems in our church, I do try to realize that they are human beings and just as fallible as the rest of us. Every one of them sits with a sword of Damocles over his head and I would never trade places with any of them.

Posted: **Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:23 am**

Perhaps it is blind faith. I know my TBM wife refuses to even listen to anything that is not pro-church. I mean not even a question about anything, to me that is just burying your head in the sand type stuff. I can only imagine that some of the bretheren use this approach. It would help explain some of the weird stuff they come up with.

Posted: **Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:23 am**

I assume the vast majority of GAs are people very compatible with Mormonism, true believers, and happy. People who aren't compatible or don't believe just don't make it that far. Something weeds them out of the system.

So what do you call a true believer who's life fits with the Mormon program, who has hit the lottery by being called as a GA? You'd expect that they're over the moon about the whole thing. Even most of the wives of GAs, though I would probably guess some fewer, are happy because they've reached the apex of the Mormon social hierarchy even without priesthood authority. I've seen several men who have backed out of leadership because the whole thing depressed their wives, so I imagine your spouse is another dimension upon which people are again weeded out of the system.

The only exception to this, I'd imagine, are the Mormon royalty type families. There are some people who are just born into high position. Some in that situation wouldn't have to prove loyalty, they'd just get promoted unless they actively protest. For them there is likely high pressure to fake it till you make it.

Posted: **Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:16 pm**

oliver_denom wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:23 am I assume the vast majority of GAs are people very compatible with Mormonism, true believers, and happy. People who aren't compatible or don't believe just don't make it that far. Something weeds them out of the system.

So what do you call a true believer who's life fits with the Mormon program, who has hit the lottery by being called as a GA? You'd expect that they're over the moon about the whole thing. Even most of the wives of GAs, though I would probably guess some fewer, are happy because they've reached the apex of the Mormon social hierarchy even without priesthood authority. I've seen several men who have backed out of leadership because the whole thing depressed their wives, so I imagine your spouse is another dimension upon which people are again weeded out of the system.

The only exception to this, I'd imagine, are the Mormon royalty type families. There are some people who are just born into high position. Some in that situation wouldn't have to prove loyalty, they'd just get promoted unless they actively protest. For them there is likely high pressure to fake it till you make it.

Actually, I think the spouse of royalty is an interesting aspect. I never talked to her directly, but I knew her VT comp. There was an apostle's wife who, I'm pretty sure, was discontent with her lot. I also know that GAs kids get divorced and I'm sure this whole royalty adds an interesting twist to their marriages and how their divorces proceed.

Posted: **Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:26 pm**

Give It Time wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:45 am I don't quite know what to say. I grew up in the stake where a lot of the GAs and the prophet lived. I understand the anger expressed on NOM. I abhgFTunderstand the hurt and disillusionment. I get it, but I've known and liked our leaders. I've known and liked their offspring and relatives. I've seen people intentionally try to publicly humiliate them and I've seen them handle it with marvelous class.

No problem with this. I am glad that some of them DO try to follow the teachings they profess to believe, including being kind and having patience, long suffering, etc...

Give It Time wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:45 am They've been kind. The Q15 go to tithing settlement. I have it on good authority a certain very unpopular in the DAMU apostle cleans the chapel when it's his turn. I've been to their homes and, yes there was still the fishbowl element, but their homes seemed to be happy.

I have been to homes where children were cast out because they were Gay, and families were torn apart because the children wanted to get married in the temple and had parents not able to attend. I've seen a man cry and tremble with deep soul sobs of agony because he was born a freak--a gay man who had forced himself to marry as Spencer Kimball urged, prayed until his knees buckled and there were no more tears to shed, and concluded he just must not have enough faith since President Boyd Packer said repeatedly that this was NOT the true condition of this soul. Obviously he didn't have enough faith....because after all, a prophet or in this case apostle would not be wrong about such matters.

I'm being direct here GIT, but you have separated the personal lives of these people with the teachings and the effects those teachings have on others.

You are right...some good TBM have wonderful lives. They have happy children, happy marriages, and sufficient for their needs. And therefore, does this give them license to teach things, in the name of GOD, even threatening eternal damnation, without accountability?

What of the public humiliations that use to happen with regards to public announcements (that still happen a lot more than you think) about excommunications, and the efforts taken to silence those who oppose? What about the policies to NOT correct past teachings, but just leave them out there and NOT refer to them--and the consequences that happen when people DO refer to them and dire circumstances ensue?

If you recall, Brigham Young taught blood atonement, and sent men like Jackson, Rockwell and Hickman out to actually kill in the name of God. And the current leadership teaches as a tenant of the faith that ONLY GOD will correct the brethren? And yet, we support the prophets, all the way from Joseph Smith through the current leadership?

What a license for abuse! What a license for neglect, and what a soft bubble placed around men who can destroy through teachings and fear, and yet have complete antipathy and ignorance toward the effects of their teachings on others.

How can they do it?....why ofcourse (being sarcastic here), they speak for God. Nay....GOD SPEAKS THROUGH THEM....and so if there are casualties because of their teachings, then that is the FAULT OF THE PEOPLE.

Like my poor friend who could never bring himself to commit suicide because he was too afraid of that--if he ONLY had enough faith, he would be cured. After all, Boyd Packer said it was so, in the name of GOD.

And lest we forget, it is the will of God that Satan have a representation on the earth. That is why Blacks were allowed to survive the "universal flood" . In that teaching, as in others, we have admission of mistakes being made, and yet in the same vein: "We can not lead you astray...God will not allow that."....hunh?

Give It Time wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:45 am Even though it's grudgingly given, I appreciate the empathy for our leaders. Much as I'd like to knock their heads together and get them working on solving some serious problems in our church, I do try to realize that they are human beings and just as fallible as the rest of us. Every one of them sits with a sword of Damocles over his head and I would never trade places with any of them.

I have empathy for only those who perhaps are honestly ignorant of the teachings and history. I recall the Swedish guy who spoke on Ex Mormons a while ago--who left the church when he "woke up" (his own words). But, I do NOT have empathy for those who are aware of the history and excuse it away, in the name of "not speaking evil of the Lord's anointed."

I once heard someone compare the position of the church to an abusive marriage. In such a marriage, lets take the man as saying: "Where will you go without me? What will you do? I'm here for you, take care of your needs. I give you meaning?"....and yet this same man uses shame, threats, controls the information, speaks with supreme authority, doesn't take or listen to feedback, and expects complete alleience, even obedience, for blessings to be granted. And when those blessings are not granted, it is because it wasn't God's will, or perhaps just not enough faith.

If the wife decides to leave such a marriage, the community is turned against her--she is not allowed to find work in the community, it shunned, and is told she is a child of hell for leaving.

I would consider THAT an abusive marriage.

Why then is it not an abusive relationship because it is in the Church?

So, I wonder, what do these men do who know the history and the teachings?....how can someone morally take this type of position?

Posted: **Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:06 pm**

If they are TBM and genuinely believe they are apostles... do they believe they have a "special witness of Christ" and all that entails? I've wondered about this since the collapse of my faith.

Posted: **Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:42 pm**

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:26 pm
Give It Time wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:45 am I don't quite know what to say. I grew up in the stake where a lot of the GAs and the prophet lived. I understand the anger expressed on NOM. I abhgFTunderstand the hurt and disillusionment. I get it, but I've known and liked our leaders. I've known and liked their offspring and relatives. I've seen people intentionally try to publicly humiliate them and I've seen them handle it with marvelous class.
No problem with this. I am glad that some of them DO try to follow the teachings they profess to believe, including being kind and having patience, long suffering, etc...

Give It Time wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:45 am They've been kind. The Q15 go to tithing settlement. I have it on good authority a certain very unpopular in the DAMU apostle cleans the chapel when it's his turn. I've been to their homes and, yes there was still the fishbowl element, but their homes seemed to be happy.
I have been to homes where children were cast out because they were Gay, and families were torn apart because the children wanted to get married in the temple and had parents not able to attend. I've seen a man cry and tremble with deep soul sobs of agony because he was born a freak--a gay man who had forced himself to marry as Spencer Kimball urged, prayed until his knees buckled and there were no more tears to shed, and concluded he just must not have enough faith since President Boyd Packer said repeatedly that this was NOT the true condition of this soul. Obviously he didn't have enough faith....because after all, a prophet or in this case apostle would not be wrong about such matters.

I'm being direct here GIT, but you have separated the personal lives of these people with the teachings and the effects those teachings have on others.

You are right...some good TBM have wonderful lives. They have happy children, happy marriages, and sufficient for their needs. And therefore, does this give them license to teach things, in the name of GOD, even threatening eternal damnation, without accountability?

What of the public humiliations that use to happen with regards to public announcements (that still happen a lot more than you think) about excommunications, and the efforts taken to silence those who oppose? What about the policies to NOT correct past teachings, but just leave them out there and NOT refer to them--and the consequences that happen when people DO refer to them and dire circumstances ensue?

If you recall, Brigham Young taught blood atonement, and sent men like Jackson, Rockwell and Hickman out to actually kill in the name of God. And the current leadership teaches as a tenant of the faith that ONLY GOD will correct the brethren? And yet, we support the prophets, all the way from Joseph Smith through the current leadership?

What a license for abuse! What a license for neglect, and what a soft bubble placed around men who can destroy through teachings and fear, and yet have complete antipathy and ignorance toward the effects of their teachings on others.

How can they do it?....why ofcourse (being sarcastic here), they speak for God. Nay....GOD SPEAKS THROUGH THEM....and so if there are casualties because of their teachings, then that is the FAULT OF THE PEOPLE.

Like my poor friend who could never bring himself to commit suicide because he was too afraid of that--if he ONLY had enough faith, he would be cured. After all, Boyd Packer said it was so, in the name of GOD.

And lest we forget, it is the will of God that Satan have a representation on the earth. That is why Blacks were allowed to survive the "universal flood" . In that teaching, as in others, we have admission of mistakes being made, and yet in the same vein: "We can not lead you astray...God will not allow that."....hunh?

Give It Time wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:45 am Even though it's grudgingly given, I appreciate the empathy for our leaders. Much as I'd like to knock their heads together and get them working on solving some serious problems in our church, I do try to realize that they are human beings and just as fallible as the rest of us. Every one of them sits with a sword of Damocles over his head and I would never trade places with any of them.
I have empathy for only those who perhaps are honestly ignorant of the teachings and history. I recall the Swedish guy who spoke on Ex Mormons a while ago--who left the church when he "woke up" (his own words). But, I do NOT have empathy for those who are aware of the history and excuse it away, in the name of "not speaking evil of the Lord's anointed."

I once heard someone compare the position of the church to an abusive marriage. In such a marriage, lets take the man as saying: "Where will you go without me? What will you do? I'm here for you, take care of your needs. I give you meaning?"....and yet this same man uses shame, threats, controls the information, speaks with supreme authority, doesn't take or listen to feedback, and expects complete alleience, even obedience, for blessings to be granted. And when those blessings are not granted, it is because it wasn't God's will, or perhaps just not enough faith.

If the wife decides to leave such a marriage, the community is turned against her--she is not allowed to find work in the community, it shunned, and is told she is a child of hell for leaving.

I would consider THAT an abusive marriage.

Why then is it not an abusive relationship because it is in the Church?

So, I wonder, what do these men do who know the history and the teachings?....how can someone morally take this type of position?

R4H, three things:

1. I agree with you.

2. I try to have compassion for everyone. It's the way I used to be. I never really wanted to get away from it.

3. I hope you'll excuse me. I'm bowing out. The crap just hit the fan in my real life and I am putting my attention there.

Posted: **Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:51 pm**

From what I've gathered, it's becoming more & more socially accepted - even peer pressured - within their circle, to treat their paid "callings" as much as a business as church. This is something most of us "commoners" never experienced. They are special & regularly told they're "authorities," "prophets, seers & revelators." So, it's probably easy to justify immoral things they're involved with (like financial corruption) because they're different & the same rules don't apply to them. And TRADITION!!! They may justify robbing the poor by "well, I didn't start this - it's just the way things have been done for many years."

Also, they've kept so busy with the church, it's like part of them and their eye can't see their own eye. I've wondered if Uchtdorf saw some dysfunctional aspects when he first joined the GA's, but I think peer pressure is powerful - for everyone.

Posted: **Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:04 pm**

Give It Time wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:42 pm
R4H, three things:

1. I agree with you.

2. I try to have compassion for everyone. It's the way I used to be. I never really wanted to get away from it.

3. I hope you'll excuse me. I'm bowing out. The crap just hit the fan in my real life and I am putting my attention there.

Hey GIT. I apologize if I have ANYTHING to do with driving you away on this group. For some reason I had some feelings come up when I read through this thread and I posted what is a rather strong (and hopefully none attacking, but it may come across that way) post.

My brother married into a GA family--a rather prominent one (which I can't divulge). I've rubbed shoulders with some of those people, including both sides, including the ladies side of things as well. I know, from my own experience, that many of those people don't know about the history issues, nor the inside issues where damage happens. They are surrounded by a core of "faithful" people who virtually worship them. Their roles take ALL of their time, so they have little if any time to even investigate the issues.

I am also reminded of a talk given by Greg Prince regarding the same issue--meaning very few GAs have the time to really even look at the history, let alone weigh its accuracy against their belief system. They depend on the apologists and polemicists to do the "thinking" for them--if you can believe that.

Anyway....for what its worth...I LOVE YOUR POSTS. So, If I have come across across as a brute...I'm sorry. And this is a jab...but I'm gunna say it: I am not like the church,...I can say I'm sorry.

Posted: **Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:02 pm**

It makes sense to focus more on positive ideas and aspects of things & people.
But I also believe it's not healthy to have the approach of turning a blind eye to immoral things, simply because it's
A) someone we love
B) someone admired & popular or
C) someone in authority.

There's good reason leaders of governments are criticized. They're leading us - thereby affecting us & those we love. Mind control dictated to me that even if a lds church leader is doing immoral things, "shame on you for speaking evil of the Lord's annointed!" Dysfunctional shaming that I've heard too often. And it is hurtful when essentially church leaders who are KNOWN to be handling church funds in ways contrary to Christ's teachings, & who don't even know or care about me or my family - come above all in so many relationships. On top of that, they financially & psychologically hurt people I love.

Posted: **Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:50 pm**

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:04 pm
Give It Time wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:42 pm
R4H, three things:

1. I agree with you.

2. I try to have compassion for everyone. It's the way I used to be. I never really wanted to get away from it.

3. I hope you'll excuse me. I'm bowing out. The crap just hit the fan in my real life and I am putting my attention there.
Hey GIT. I apologize if I have ANYTHING to do with driving you away on this group. For some reason I had some feelings come up when I read through this thread and I posted what is a rather strong (and hopefully none attacking, but it may come across that way) post.

My brother married into a GA family--a rather prominent one (which I can't divulge). I've rubbed shoulders with some of those people, including both sides, including the ladies side of things as well. I know, from my own experience, that many of those people don't know about the history issues, nor the inside issues where damage happens. They are surrounded by a core of "faithful" people who virtually worship them. Their roles take ALL of their time, so they have little if any time to even investigate the issues.

I am also reminded of a talk given by Greg Prince regarding the same issue--meaning very few GAs have the time to really even look at the history, let alone weigh its accuracy against their belief system. They depend on the apologists and polemicists to do the "thinking" for them--if you can believe that.

Anyway....for what its worth...I LOVE YOUR POSTS. So, If I have come across across as a brute...I'm sorry. And this is a jab...but I'm gunna say it: I am not like the church,...I can say I'm sorry.

It's all good, R4H. I was in the process of my second attempt at writing very long posts about what I summarized when a situation did arise at home that needed my attention.

I think Newme makes an excellent point. That is absolutely true.

I also appreciate your information about how the GAs are just isolated and protected and that's really kind of interesting to consider.

Finally, I thought your apology was great!

That situation is still kind of going so I need to kind of get back to it.

Posted: **Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:57 pm**

Mad Jax wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:06 pm If they are TBM and genuinely believe they are apostles... do they believe they have a "special witness of Christ" and all that entails? I've wondered about this since the collapse of my faith.

I've wondered this too. I think they probably convince themselves that they have a "special witness of Christ." They probably remember some spiritual event and say to themselves "oh that was my special witness"-all the while thinking that if they become the prophet, that is when they will actually see and speak to Christ.

GIT thank you for reminding me that they are people too. Rob, I do not envy them at all. It would suck to be in their shoes.

The GAs are a really sore spot for me. I made so many huge life decisions based on their counsel because I thought they were really speaking for God. I married someone I should have lived with and slept with first. We had kids right away because that was the counsel of the prophets to not put off having a family. I stayed in an abusive marriage. I gave up 2 promotions at my work because I didn't want to go full time. I felt guilty enough working part time. On all of these decisions I ignored my common sense and deferred to the teachings of the Q15 because I really, really believed they were speaking for God. Now I'm a single mom with two little kids struggling to keep us above the poverty line. And really it could be worse. At least I'm alive. There are so many of our LGBT brothers and sisters who aren't, again because they too believed that these men spoke for God.

I am trying to see their humanity more. But it is a struggle.

Posted: **Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:22 pm**

Give It Time wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:45 am The Q15 go to tithing settlement.

I've read various accounts of the Brethren being exempt from tithing in the sense that it would be like robbing Lucky Luciano to pay Joe Bonano. I guess going to tithing settlement would be more than just for show.

Posted: **Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:31 am**

moksha wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:22 pm
Give It Time wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:45 am The Q15 go to tithing settlement.
I've read various accounts of the Brethren being exempt from tithing in the sense that it would be like robbing Lucky Luciano to pay Joe Bonano. I guess going to tithing settlement would be more than just for show.

May be a conspiracy theory, but could it be so that when they do go to tithing settlement, the bishop doesn't see what the tithing is and then calculate what their income is? As secretive as they are about what they really get paid, they need to minimize the change for exposure.

Posted: **Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:18 am**

Interesting thoughts. This could be a case where they pay directly to headquarters and so the bishop doesn't know. I do know the bishop asks them if they are a full tithe payer.

Posted: **Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:29 am**

Don't waste your sympathy on them. I mean really - they know the issues, they approved the essays. When Elder Anderson got up in Conference and told the membership to "Give Joseph a break" he did so knowing full well he was talking about a guy who messed around with 14 year old girls and married women. He did it with his eyes wide open. They know they don't do miraculous things - yet they are perfectly happy to accept adulation as "prophets, seers, and revelators". They are showered with praise no matter where they go for doing nothing other than holding a calling, and they are paid at a level most members would be envious of for it.

I am sure most of them are nice guys on their own. But they hide things to keep the members believing, they pretend to be something they know they are not, they exploit the system selling books for monetary gain they know will sell because of the positions they hold, they use their positions to set up friends and family members (see the recently appointed president of BYU-I for evidence of that) - they preside over and perpetuate a corrupt system. Maybe they convince themselves they are doing God's work while doing it, but that doesn't matter in the end, does it? Plenty of Christians in the South convinced themselves that slavery was good for blacks, and their intentions didn't mean jack squat to the slaves they owned.

They don't deserve your sympathy. They are not men of integrity. They are frauds, liars, and cheats - even if they are frauds, liars, and cheats who are friendly and kind to those around them.

Posted: **Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:08 am**

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:29 am Don't waste your sympathy on them. I mean really - they know the issues, they approved the essays.

You are so dead on here. This slipped my mind above, but how could they NOT know the issues?....and yet they take a polemic position, using their position to promote the party line.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:29 am When Elder Anderson got up in Conference and told the membership to "Give Joseph a break" he did so knowing full well he was talking about a guy who messed around with 14 year old girls and married women. He did it with his eyes wide open.

I was sickened by the chuckle that went through the congregation when he said it. Oh...how funny it was...a man who needs a break because he was, after all, doing God's work. I'm sure Emma felt that way as I'm sure she shed a few tears and wept in bitter agony as GOD (meaning delusional Joseph who acted as God) threw her under the bus...over and over and over and over and over and over......(some 30+ times at least)...

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:29 am They know they don't do miraculous things - yet they are perfectly happy to accept adulation as "prophets, seers, and revelators".

Not sure they know this. I think they smear the line. I know, for example, there is supposed to be this "revelation room" associated with calling missionaries to certain countries, etc. I've heard Elder Eyring talk about that process, and he certainly makes it into a big deal...

I think some of them really do think they are having miracles happen. Doesn't make it true or right, but it could be a belief they have. Your thoughts?

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:29 am They are showered with praise no matter where they go for doing nothing other than holding a calling, and they are paid at a level most members would be envious of for it.

This is VERY true. I remember once watching Elder Perry cross the street in front of the administration building, and he could hardly cross without traffic stopping and people just fawning over him. He was uncomfortable, but he was still adored. These guys have LDS members like paparazzi groveling. Its disgusting.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:29 am I am sure most of them are nice guys on their own.

I'm not so sure. I've heard some things about Bednar, Packer and even Monson that would possibly indicate otherwise. I have read some of JFS writings, and I think he was a jerk.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:29 am But they hide things to keep the members believing, they pretend to be something they know they are not, they exploit the system selling books for monetary gain they know will sell because of the positions they hold, they use their positions to set up friends and family members (see the recently appointed president of BYU-I for evidence of that) - they preside over and perpetuate a corrupt system. Maybe they convince themselves they are doing God's work while doing it, but that doesn't matter in the end, does it? Plenty of Christians in the South convinced themselves that slavery was good for blacks, and their intentions didn't mean jack squat to the slaves they owned.

I've heard that theme happen more and more. It seems to follow the idea presented above of an abusive marriage. The leadership says: "Where will you go without us?..."...as though they are the only safe place. Abusive spouses have done that for years: telling their partner "You can't live without me! I am the only safe place for you! What will you do without me?"....and through this means, the decision making capability is eroded away, leaving a shell of a person who is unable to make decisions themselves.

I have a horrible example to share because of how extreme it is,...but I"m gunna share it anyway. I recall something that happened during the Napoleonic Wars. A French soldier went into the building owned by the Spanish Inquisition. That commander, ordered by Napoleon to put such things down, searched the place and couldn't find anything. Then, wondering "what if"....ordered the main area to be flooded with water to see if the water went down into the floor anywhere. The priests demanded the activity stop, threatening damnation and every other thing. The commander made a choice, right then and there--he said he was willing to proceed forward regardless of the threat. The water was pored, and sure enough, a passage was found into the floor. When going down into that passage, the instruments and cells of the inquisition were discovered in all their horrid and lurid detail.

This story, read years and years ago, has influenced me regarding mental threats that control knowledge seeking and mind control. Governments do this type of thing all over, as do various religious groups of all types. And, I am hypersensitive to its use. Whenever someone tries to control information, uses threats, either subtle or overt to stop investigation, it is WRONG. IN fact, I believe its evil.

How many times in my life have I heard: "you shouldn't ask such questions!...you should have faith." Or: "There is a temptation for the writer or the teacher of Church history to want to tell everything, whether it is worthy or faith promoting or not. Some things that are true are not very useful." That last one from Boyd Packer?...yeh, that put chills down my spine.

He WAS HIDING TRUTH! He was denying the chance of "informed consent".

That happened to me when I went to the temple. I had no idea I was going to pantomime cutting my own throat. I had no choice in the matter other than leaving right then and there, and yet the way it was presented denied me the choice: I had no idea the meaning, hadn't been given time to even think about it--and I was expected with immense social pressure to proceed forward.

DAMN THAT MAKES ME ANGRY!

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:29 am They don't deserve your sympathy. They are not men of integrity. They are frauds, liars, and cheats - even if they are frauds, liars, and cheats who are friendly and kind to those around them.

Amen

Again I say,...would suck to be a GA. You have to keep up appearances, and smear your own lines of integrity to do it.

Posted: **Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:01 am**

My name is Fluffy, and I approve of Not Buying It's message.

Whether or not they have deluded themselves into believing that what they are doing is "for the greater good", they are in fact perpetuating lies, and they have done so for almost 200 years.

Yet... I am also conflicted in that: Their "calling" is literally a death sentence. Being an introvert and complete social reject, It's a "calling" I would never want, even when I was a believer, so in a way I feel sorry for them. Weird, eh? [Insert bang-head-against-wall smiley here.]

Posted: **Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:16 am**

Rob4Hope wrote:Not sure they know this. I think they smear the line. I know, for example, there is supposed to be this "revelation room" associated with calling missionaries to certain countries, etc. I've heard Elder Eyring talk about that process, and he certainly makes it into a big deal...

Oh yes, the revelation room where the apostles receive mission call revelation? Did you know it comes with a 2 ft stylus and a personal IT assistant? God may have had plans for Elder Timmy to go to South Africa, but due to a jittery old apostolic hand, he was sent to North Dakota on accident by Elder Oaks.

Got Priesthood antenna?

NOM

oK Everyone....it would suck to be a GA

oK Everyone....it would suck to be a GA

Re: oK Everyone....it would suck to be a GA

Re: oK Everyone....it would suck to be a GA

Re: oK Everyone....it would suck to be a GA

Re: oK Everyone....it would suck to be a GA

Re: oK Everyone....it would suck to be a GA

Re: oK Everyone....it would suck to be a GA

Re: oK Everyone....it would suck to be a GA

Re: oK Everyone....it would suck to be a GA

Re: oK Everyone....it would suck to be a GA

Re: oK Everyone....it would suck to be a GA

Re: oK Everyone....it would suck to be a GA

Re: oK Everyone....it would suck to be a GA

Re: oK Everyone....it would suck to be a GA

Re: oK Everyone....it would suck to be a GA

Re: oK Everyone....it would suck to be a GA

Re: oK Everyone....it would suck to be a GA

Re: oK Everyone....it would suck to be a GA

Re: oK Everyone....it would suck to be a GA

Re: oK Everyone....it would suck to be a GA