NOM

This is not a bashing thread - the very kind thread RR posted about women on the board reminded me of things I've personally heard, or have friends who have heard. I'm not trying to bash men (especially not the ones on this board - gosh, what a wonderful group of guys you are!), but some of the comments from the men made me realize many of you have never seen this type of behavior. That's a good thing, of course. Maybe some examples will help explain why some of us often feel we have to justify things, or that we fly under the radar. Or that the church just plain doesn't get it.

Here are some examples:

"So, you really do work!" - (Said by an LDS guy who wanted to date me, after I explained the very intense work I do, which is usually online and done remotely. I think to him, the fact I work from home translated to "not really working").

"What do you know about that anyway?" (Said by a real estate agent after I asked whether the studs in a house were 18 on center or 24 on center).

"Well, so & so, you ought to understand this, here's how the siding insulates the home..." (Said by a sales guy for siding, addressing a male friend of mine who had no ownership in my home, while trying to sell me some siding. Not ONCE did the man actually address me, even though he knew I was the homeowner).

"What's your family situation?" (A question during a job interview some time back, but not all that long ago - after the laws were clearly in place. Not only that, it was an organization related to attorneys.)

"You don't understand, I *work!*" (Said by an ex-spouse. Both of us were career people and worked full-time.)

"As long as XXX is the president of this company, a woman will never be in the XXX department." (Literally said to me by a VP. I one an EEOC case against this company but requested no money, because that would have made it about money. I just wanted them to change their ways).

"Ooooh - getting testy are we?" (Said by a guy at a carwash after I held my own when he was trying to pressure me for an up-sale).

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The above is all in addition to the spoken or unspoken culture in the church. I could go on and on - there are so, so many examples. These are the types of phrases women still hear (sometimes less so than others). For many of us who have had long careers, this type of thing chips away at you. It is depressing. It sends a message that you have to work harder and better. You can be conditioned to think you're second class or invisible. Since the church does yet another number on you, it can be very defeating. Or at least tiring.

As I said - I am not trying to bash men. And I truly love the men on our board, you've helped me heal more than you'll ever know. Thanks for reading, if you got this far!

I know you'd like friends to do things with, now, but just wait. When we're in the Celestial Kingdom and I have my twenty-seven wives, you'll have plenty of company.

[Edited because it's a little too much like my avatar would say.]

I truly do think he was trying to comfort me with this statement.

Hmm yeah. I cannot come up with any examples, but just want to point out that sometimes as women we can become fully invested in patriarchy and benevolent sexism so much that women can be some of the hardest offenders against each other when it comes to sexist remarks.

Just today my aunt made a comment about me returning to work full time and how long hours I'd be working and how much time I'll be away from the kids. Failed to mention or give a rats' behind about my husband working full time and all the hours he is away from the kids.

Probably the worst one though was when I was turned down for a job and the man (a patriarch) told me he prayed about it and just knew I was meant to be somewhere else.

This was a government job. Not a job with the church. He might have said that to a man too, but I kind of doubt it. Also notable, not in my ward, didn't know me at church, not in my Stake, not my patriarch, never attended LDS church in the same building. When I mentioned the experience to a coworker this happened, they said, "well he IS a patriarch."

Uncannily, the first statements that popped in my head were from women, too.

"Men are just violent". Said by my VT to try to build some sort of bridge between me and my ex and get me to accept the fact that DV is the price of admission for marriage. I'm kind of wondering about her marriage.

I also think you guys have these traits called self control, integrity and compassion.

(I thought I had posted this so sorry if it's a dup...)

This post makes me uncomfortable. I know you're saying you're not bashing men. But how would we feel if there was a thread like this about women?

I think focusing on one of those incidents or a pattern of behavior to discuss/dissect may have felt different. This does feel like an opportunity to criticize men in general rather than specific incidents. And it's in stark contrast to the recent threads on women here.

Just my 2 cents....

Anon70 wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2017 7:44 pm (I thought I had posted this so sorry if it's a dup...)

This post makes me uncomfortable. I know you're saying you're not bashing men. But how would we feel if there was a thread like this about women?

I think focusing on one of those incidents or a pattern of behavior to discuss/dissect may have felt different. This does feel like an opportunity to criticize men in general rather than specific incidents. And it's in stark contrast to the recent threads on women here.

Just my 2 cents....

Thanks for pointing that out. Sometimes, I don't realize...

In reference to the OPs comments I see three sentiments running through the comments shared:

1. Dismissing your intelligence/knowledge. Strictly speaking dismissing someone's intelligence is different than dismissing their knowledge, but it's pretty rare to have someone treat you like you're ignorant without feeling like they're also calling you stupid.
2. Dismissing your efforts/contributions. This is an obvious sentiment that runs through the job related comment, assuming your job isn't as important and demanding because you're a woman.
3. Dismissing your self-determination. The most obvious sentiment in the car wash salesman's comments, calling you fiesty is pulling more into it than strictly self-determination (it's pulling in ideas of proper feminine behavior), but that's the thread that jumps out from where I'm standing (and I see it in other examples shared in the thread).

I want to be clear this is my analysis and I'm not trying to say it is the reality of someone who experienced them firsthand (nor is it comprehensive). Anon70 mentioned patterns and dissecting specific incidents so I thought how I'd group them with a quick think through. While I'll not understand on the same emotional level as one who has lived through the experience intellectually I can see how someone who has spent their life being whipped with a braid made of the elements I see above would have a hard time not feeling that what they know doesn't matter, what they do doesn't matter, and what they want doesn't matter.

Jackson Katz has excellent things to say about being a bystander. I think an easy thing to keep in mind is just ask yourself if what is being said, even if it's joking, is mean. Then he suggests easy ways to speak up. It is something good for all of us to learn.

It's especially important for men, because. Guys. You're the ones in power. When you hold the microphone, more people are likely to listen and listen with respect. Sad truth, but that's the way if our world.

https://www.ted.com/talks/jackson_katz_ ... en_s_issue

Give It Time wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2017 9:18 pm Jackson Katz has excellent things to say about being a bystander. I think an easy thing to keep in mind is just ask yourself if what is being said, even if it's joking, is mean. Then he suggests easy ways to speak up. It is something good for all of us to learn.

It's especially important for men, because. Guys. You're the ones in power. When you hold the microphone, more people are likely to listen and listen with respect. Sad truth, but that's the way if our world.

https://www.ted.com/talks/jackson_katz_ ... en_s_issue

This is a great point. I remember sitting in a business meeting where they went around the table introducing everyone and completely ignored me at first. I was a department director, but everyone else in the room was male. The culture of my overall career is fairly egalitarian (news media), but several times I have worked in male-dominated organizations. Those were the settings where the people holding the microphones were most noticeable. I always got through those situations, but they do leave imprints.

Give It Time wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2017 9:18 pm Jackson Katz has excellent things to say about being a bystander. I think an easy thing to keep in mind is just ask yourself if what is being said, even if it's joking, is mean. Then he suggests easy ways to speak up. It is something good for all of us to learn.

It's especially important for men, because. Guys. You're the ones in power. When you hold the microphone, more people are likely to listen and listen with respect. Sad truth, but that's the way if our world.

https://www.ted.com/talks/jackson_katz_ ... en_s_issue

WOW - I just watched this, and it is outstanding. I also posted it on FB, because it has such a powerful message. I agree with him that we all need to speak up, and that it's especially crucial for those who most often "hold the mic" to do so.

Thanks for posting this, Give it Time, it is so worth watching.

trophywife26.2 wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2017 7:23 pm Hmm yeah. I cannot come up with any examples, but just want to point out that sometimes as women we can become fully invested in patriarchy and benevolent sexism so much that women can be some of the hardest offenders against each other when it comes to sexist remarks.

Just today my aunt made a comment about me returning to work full time and how long hours I'd be working and how much time I'll be away from the kids. Failed to mention or give a rats' behind about my husband working full time and all the hours he is away from the kids.

Women definitely add to the dynamic of men having the power. The church teaches women to stay home with the kids, and I've heard many instances of women being treated poorly for having a career, or not having children (this was especially painful for some women I know who had trouble conceiving). The cray-cray RS president I served with literally said nobody could ever question what a PH holder said. Thankfully, we had many great guys in our ward and stake, but that sort of mentality explains a lot about early church history.

As a dude who claims to hold feminist ideals but who does stuff like posting that thread a few weeks ago about not being able to perform my kid's ordinances without even thinking about the female side of the equation when I posted, well, I feel like I'm still part of the problem. Even if I do recoil at the thought of saying any of the things posted in this thread. So I don't know what to say here other than I appreciate being made aware of this kind of stuff so I can continue to improve and, hopefully one day, be part of the solution.

In some ways, being inappropriately scrutinized, judged to be less intellectual, and assumed to be inferior because I am a woman has propelled me forward. It has driven me to achieve in ways and pursued lofty goals that I may not have otherwise gone after. But, I'd definitely love to see more respect & equality between all parties-- in the workplace & in church-related settings.

You spent HOW much money? ~ an astonished RR to his grocery shopping wife.

Silver Girl wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2017 6:18 pm "What do you know about that anyway?" (Said by a real estate agent after I asked whether the studs in a house were 18 on center or 24 on center).

I think you mean 16 on center or 24 on center

Korihor wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2017 9:54 am

Silver Girl wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2017 6:18 pm "What do you know about that anyway?" (Said by a real estate agent after I asked whether the studs in a house were 18 on center or 24 on center).

I think you mean 16 on center or 24 on center

I think you're right - this was a long, long time ago! I know I asked the correct question at the time, though. Duh!

@ Enough -

Wow - yes, those things sound familiar.

I hesitated to post this particular anecdote, but in one position where I was the only female in the office, one male coworker's personalty changed every time a male friend of his visited the office. It was a small staff, and usually the guy was courteous and never out of line. But when his friend visited, he said inappropriate things. One day, as his friend was in the other room, he called out, "Hey, B*tch!" and asked a question. After the guy left, I told my coworker that was inappropriate and I didn't appreciate it (I did not want to confront him in front of his friend). The next time the guy visited, he again said something (I can't remember what), but we were all in the same room, so I said, "I've asked you before not to say that type of thing. Please don't do that." His response was to laugh it off and say something related to "women's complaints" (I don't even want to repeat it here).

That was the last straw, and the company had done nothing, so that's when I resigned the position and filed the EEO complaint I mentioned earlier. None of these people were related to the church, by the way. After my complaint was processed, I ran into him sometime later, and he said he'd told the executive office that "I was the type of person to do that" (meaning, to file a complaint). I guess the culture was to expect women to just put up with those things.

BUT - I also had a female colleague at another place who managed several workgroups, one of which included mostly men, but had one woman. Some incident occurred and the woman filed a complaint that she had been harassed. I cannot remember what was alleged, but my colleague was very irritated and complained to me that the woman was a "troublemaker." I was shocked that this woman, who had, I knew, seen such issues herself, felt that way. I reminded her that the woman had a right to bring forward problems, and it was incumbent on her as the manager to look into them.

GiveItTime I appreciate you sharing the TED talk. https://www.ted.com/talks/jackson_katz_ ... anguage=en It was not what I expected. It's refreshing to see a different point of view on these issues. Can you imagine the difference a talk like this would make in Conference? Or if this same subject was the focus of a special priesthood meeting, 5th Sunday, stake theme for the year, a leadership conference, bishops training, etc.... how things might be different. Though I doubt this will happen it's nice to think about what if.

I want to say something about the power of finding our voices and speaking up against this type of behavior. This thread and the TED talk makes me all to unaware of how ashamed I am for the times I stood silent and did not speak up when I had the power to do so. Maybe it was because of the submissive culture I was brought up in or just young and ignorant, I don't know. I too have had many times in my life when I've been hushed and brushed aside by someone who for whatever reason made it a point to make me feel less and unimportant. I know all to well how it feels when no one comes to bat for you and what is wrong is ignored. Only once can I remember when someone took action and spoke up. I learned that day how one voice can change a whole situation and how powerful one voice can be:

I was doing legal work for an attorney that I had worked for about 3 months. One day I was on the phone with a long time client requesting for more documents from him for his case. He didn't want to produce those documents and started screaming at me and calling me every name in the book, telling me I was nothing, just the hired help, a dumb secretary. Keep in mind this man and his case brought many $$$$ to the firm and had been a long time client so I just took the criticism and tried to complete my task as best as I could. I didn't want to loose their client. The attorney I worked for happened to hear some of the call since the man was screaming so loud and asked me to put him through to his office. I then heard him tell the client in a very stern, yet calm voice that he would not tolerate such treatment of any of his employees and that because of how he treated me he would no longer represent him.

There are those out there who stand and let their voices be heard just as with my employer, but there needs to be more. That day I learned the importance of the power of one voice. I for one found my voice that day.

I'm glad people have been enjoying the TED talk. I found it paradigm shifting. I hadn't thought about it's being a conference talk or a fifth Sunday topic, but it would be fantastic! It'll never be done, but it'd be fantastic!

As far as women being invisible, Aziz Ansari, does an episode about this in Master Of None.

I can't remember the two studies. I think one was about happiness and the other was about longevity. They were both long-term studies. I think one was seventy years. When the findings were compiled and published the headlines read things like


Long-term Study Finds That People/We/You Are Happier/Live Longer if They Are Married.

However, if you actually read the articles, you'd find that all the study participants were male.

I hope you'll humor me another TED talk, but this reminds of anther aspect of this.

https://www.ted.com/talks/michael_kimme ... anguage=en