NOM

I won't be attending a Granddaughter's wedding this Saturday because of my failure to hide my dissent from the church. But I thought how the church has a lot of power because of the temples. Why would they give that up? The Catholics used to say they were gatekeepers of heaven. That is- their church was the only way to get to heaven. They have since softened that stance. The LDS church is not only the self-proclaimed gatekeeper to heaven, but like the ancient Jewish leaders, they are the gatekeepers to the temple. They have built their own 'WALL'. And it gives them power (dare I say 'unrighteous dominion') over people.

The temple recommend process is a very powerful social control. It is true that a Mormon could faithfully attend all church meetings and hold lots of callings at the local level but never hold a temple recommend. There is a lot of pressure to get to the temple and certainly there are callings that denied someone without a recommend. In essence, the path for a an active unbeliever or cultural Mormon is already laid out.

But this all changes with expectations from family and friends collides with a life event like baby blessing, baptism, and marriage. Fathers in particular wear this passive aggressive scarlet letter when they don't baptize or bless their children. Even worse is that the church steps in to compensate for your moral infraction by taking your place at these events.

Weddings are more public shame. Not attending the wedding of your child is a burden supported by those without a temple recommend. The narrative really should be that Dad or Mom absolutely wanted to attend the ceremony but was barred by Pharisees in the temple. Instead, the existential burden rests on people standing outside the temple with the children and other unworthy heathens.

The LDS church has a phenomenal amount of social control within its culture. The church itself applies no shame directly. Instead, this pernicious influence is maintained by family, friends, and ward members. I simply don't see the benefit for the institutional church to change this state of affairs.

As I recall it was Tom Sawyer who made whitewashing the fence appear so attractive that all of his friends were conned into thinking they were special because Tom allowed them to do the work for him.

This is the true genius of Joseph Smith. Play on the emotions of naive people and make them pay for the privilege of supporting you and doing your work for you while promising a reward you never have to deliver on.

I am sorry deacon blues. It is true that the TR gives the church enormous power over us. The prospect of missing my children's weddings is about the only thing that keeps me in line.

This makes me rather sad for many reasons, not least because I would like to think that if God is out there then he/she would not wish us to be coerced into staying in a toxic environment by effectively holding our children hostage.

Ironic how the temple is claimed to be the place that unites families but in reality it divides them greatly in this life. And even if you buy into the church narrative it divides in heaven. Be temple worthy you whole life or you get cut off in heaven.

I'm sorry, that is horrible. The Church may not be the only religious organization that uses your family against you, but that sure as hell doesn't make it right. That's just evil. They know what they are are doing to families, but power and control are more important to them than the family relationships of the members.

And you are right, they will never, ever let that control go. Because deep down they know that without it they could never get the members to do the things they are able to get them to do now without it.

I hope my son marries a native of a country where they don't have the one year wait. I hope they marry in that country.

1smartdodog wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2017 5:09 am Ironic how the temple is claimed to be the place that unites families but in reality it divides them greatly in this life. And even if you buy into the church narrative it divides in heaven. Be temple worthy you whole life or you get cut off in heaven.

I have marveled about the "Time and Eternity" portion of the temple ceremony, and how so much emphasis is placed on "Eternity" that the marriage suffers and falls apart in this life.

If more emphasis was placed on "Time", and the marriage was actually happy and connected, you would kindof think the "Eternity" portion may just work itself out a little more?

The disparity between the stated intentions and the actual results of what happens destroys the credibility of the original claim. I don't believe the LDS church cares about family. They care about power.

Can anyone envision a future where non-members are allowed to somehow attend a marriage ceremony held in the temple. I say "marriage ceremony" because the sealing (to my mind) is a separate ceremony that happens in conjunction with the sealing. Legalistic, I admit, but what of having the non-believers attend a wedding ceremony in the temple chapel immediately after the sealing?

Brent wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2017 7:20 am Can anyone envision a future where non-members are allowed to somehow attend a marriage ceremony held in the temple. I say "marriage ceremony" because the sealing (to my mind) is a separate ceremony that happens in conjunction with the sealing. Legalistic, I admit, but what of having the non-believers attend a wedding ceremony in the temple chapel immediately after the sealing?

Nope

It interferes with the power structure. The church can't tolerate it.

I can well imagine clever LDS entrepreneurs offering to sell members a saved a place in line at the special Mormon turnstile in Spirit Paradise for a fee. Wait, has that idea already been taken?

I'm so sorry. when I was a young bride I didn't think about what it meant for my father to be standing outside the gates when I got married - that's just the way it was. My younger sister got married at a winery last year and my father was so thrilled to be able to attend one of his daughter's weddings and it was only then I realized how cruel the situation is for everyone. And you're right - it is all about control.

I know what you mean. I remember, as a TBM, hearing non-members complaining about missing their kids wedding, and thinking, "they just don't get it." And now I watch members obliviously plan weddings as if the non members who are polite or deferential don't mind getting left out, and think "They just don't get it." Maybe they only real way to understand a person's view is to "walk a mile in their shoes."

Family members unable to get recommends wait in the street till the marriage is over:

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Can of Worms wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2017 7:22 pm I'm so sorry. when I was a young bride I didn't think about what it meant for my father to be standing outside the gates when I got married - that's just the way it was. My younger sister got married at a winery last year and my father was so thrilled to be able to attend one of his daughter's weddings and it was only then I realized how cruel the situation is for everyone. And you're right - it is all about control.

Neither did I, CanOfWorms. Barely past being a teenager, I thought being married in the temple showed my religious sincerity and righteousness. My father, a non-member, was not able to attend any of his children's marriages. The truly sad thing though, is neither was my mother, although she was active in the church, because she was married to my father. (In the olden days married women could not get their endowments without their husbands also being endowed.) So for her, the pinnacle of success as a Mormon mother is to have your children be active in the church and married in the temple, and she had to miss it. I never spoke to her about how that must have hurt.

Palerider wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2017 10:36 pm As I recall it was Tom Sawyer who made whitewashing the fence appear so attractive that all of his friends were conned into thinking they were special because Tom allowed them to do the work for him.

This is the true genius of Joseph Smith. Play on the emotions of naive people and make them pay for the privilege of supporting you and doing your work for you while promising a reward you never have to deliver on.

I never thought of the church as a corporate Tom Sawyer, but now I see it!

Can of Worms wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2017 7:22 pm I'm so sorry. when I was a young bride I didn't think about what it meant for my father to be standing outside the gates when I got married - that's just the way it was. My younger sister got married at a winery last year and my father was so thrilled to be able to attend one of his daughter's weddings and it was only then I realized how cruel the situation is for everyone. And you're right - it is all about control.

I can relate. But the way my dad gracefully handled that and how my TBM Mom has tried to hurt me because I don't believe as she does... it's helped me see even more clearly the evil of the lds church. The lds church not only doesn't have a monopoly on good people, but often it inspires the worst in people, and often people (like my dad) are better people for not being as involved in it.

Ironically, the church is opposition - tests people to see if they're going to worship it (as pressured to) or God.

Nonny wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2017 3:37 pm

Can of Worms wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2017 7:22 pm I'm so sorry. when I was a young bride I didn't think about what it meant for my father to be standing outside the gates when I got married - that's just the way it was. My younger sister got married at a winery last year and my father was so thrilled to be able to attend one of his daughter's weddings and it was only then I realized how cruel the situation is for everyone. And you're right - it is all about control.

Neither did I, CanOfWorms. Barely past being a teenager, I thought being married in the temple showed my religious sincerity and righteousness. My father, a non-member, was not able to attend any of his children's marriages. The truly sad thing though, is neither was my mother, although she was active in the church, because she was married to my father. (In the olden days married women could not get their endowments without their husbands also being endowed.) So for her, the pinnacle of success as a Mormon mother is to have your children be active in the church and married in the temple, and she had to miss it. I never spoke to her about how that must have hurt.

Nonny - that is heartbreaking. I hadn't thought about it but the situation was the same for my mother. Her father was inactive but her mother was a faithful member her entire life but couldn't be endowed until after he passed away. My parents were married in the temple and it didn't sink in until now that neither of my mother's parents were there. It is really shocking to me that it didn't seem horrible at the time.

I'm so glad that my DD married a nevermo and DH and I didn't have to deal with the issue. My SIL cried that DD would make such a choice but I think the rest of us had a great time at her wedding. His family paid for an open bar and our family enjoyed the time away from the kids (we paid for a babysitter for the under 12 crowd - thought the open bar might be too hard to explain to some of them).

CanOfWorms, my DD also married a nevermo, and it was really hard on her dad. I was torn between her joy at not having to follow the Mormon path for women and my DH's disappointment that there would be an empty chair in the CK.

Thanks for your comments.