NOM

Each day, for the rest of May, please share your honest response to each temple recommend question, based on what you believe right now.

#8
Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

Personal thought:
At first I thought this referred to temple covenants, but those are addressed in a different question. So I think it means baptismal covenants.

NOWmormon wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2017 4:40 am Each day, for the rest of May, please share your honest response to each temple recommend question, based on what you believe right now.

#8
Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

Personal thought:
At first I thought this referred to temple covenants, but those are addressed in a different question. So I think it means baptismal covenants.

Covenants

Baptismal: yes

Obedience: absolutely not. It was through obeying that covenant I learned exactly how dangerous it is. At the very least, it robs women of their agency and integrity.

Sacrifice: no

Chastity: yes

Law or consecration: no

Marriage: yes, in that I hold marriage sacred

Meetings: I do my best, but could definitely do better. So, no.

Your personal thoughts on this are interesting to note.

Taking baptismal covenants and church attendance into account, I would answer yes, because I am doing my best to dance a difficult dance on the attendance.

Considering the question taking into account all the covenants, my truthful answer would be no and proud of it.

However, were I in an actual interview, I would lie on this one. I choose to be honest, here. If my purpose is to attend family events and that is it. I would lie for the sake of familial harmony. It's putting my family first.

NOWmormon wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2017 4:40 am #8
Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

I do not feel beholden to promises made to someone I no longer believe exists. I could be cheeky and talk about the Church's habit of telling people they've entered into covenants when the ordinances involved make no mention of them, but the short of it is if god doesn't exist the supposed covenants I've entered into with him are irrelevant. It's like trying to put the screws to someone for not keeping their promise to Santa Claus to always leave cookies out for him.

NOWmormon wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2017 4:40 am #8
Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

Ah, this is a fun one isn't it!

Covenants: NO. Most of the covenants I made were made without any understanding of what I was doing, and MOST of them were made under duress. I don't view them as valid, and the entity I made them with is completely incapable of living up to their end of the "covenants". As Dravin mentioned, I'm good for a sit-down to discuss these "covenants" any time that entity wants to chat. Whether it be the mormon deity, or the so-called representatives of that deity.

As far as the marriage covenant is concerned: My wife would likely say I've broken that covenant because I no longer believe in the truth claims of mormonsim. Once again, I'll say that I did everything in my power to the best of my ability to make it work, but the church and the deity that supposedly runs the church are incapable of living up to their part of the bargain.



Meetings: That's a definite NO. Attending mormon meetings is like drowning for eternity. After I woke up to reality, I tried for a while, but I honestly can't do it. I'd make the sacrifice to spend an hour or two drowning once in a while for the wife, but there would have to be compromises from both sides, and mormonism has made any discussion of that completely out of the question.



Life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel: Another one of those vague questions that probably means whatever you want it to. I'm OK with the love-one-another happy Jesus-y parts of "the gospel" and try to live that way, so I"ll go ahead and answer YES.


♬ 1 out of 3 ain't bad ♬

Give It Time wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2017 5:21 am Covenants

Baptismal: yes

Obedience: absolutely not. It was through obeying that covenant I learned exactly how dangerous it is. At the very least, it robs women of their agency and integrity.

Sacrifice: no

Chastity: yes

Law or consecration: no

Marriage: yes, in that I hold marriage sacred

Give It Time came up with the answers I would give, although I do attend church regularly.

I'm waiting for the compiled answers to show up in a formal report to the Strengthening Church Members Committee followed by a firm request that my stake president review the temple recommend interview questions with me in in great detail.

Corsair wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2017 9:14 am

Give It Time wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2017 5:21 am Covenants

Baptismal: yes

Obedience: absolutely not. It was through obeying that covenant I learned exactly how dangerous it is. At the very least, it robs women of their agency and integrity.

Sacrifice: no

Chastity: yes

Law or consecration: no

Marriage: yes, in that I hold marriage sacred

Give It Time came up with the answers I would give, although I do attend church regularly.

I'm waiting for the compiled answers to show up in a formal report to the Strengthening Church Members Committee followed by a firm request that my stake president review the temple recommend interview questions with me in in great detail.

And then the report will be published on mormonleaks

Dravin wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2017 6:28 am

NOWmormon wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2017 4:40 am #8
Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

I do not feel beholden to promises made to someone I no longer believe exists. I could be cheeky and talk about the Church's habit of telling people they've entered into covenants when the ordinances involved make no mention of them, but the short of it is if god doesn't exist the supposed covenants I've entered into with him are irrelevant. It's like trying to put the screws to someone for not keeping their promise to Santa Claus to always leave cookies out for him.

Ditto for me!

No.

1. I do not acknowledge the authority of the LDS church as to having any bearing on my eternal soul.
2. The actual requirements are constantly changing and open to the personal interpretation of different members of leadership. It is literally impossible to follow all of the commandments the church has invented.
3. I attend the church of the great blue dome and strive to attend services and activities as often as possible.

Dear church:

I kept my end of the bargain on all of these things and then some. I attended meetings. I obeyed the WoW. I wore your stupid and ugly underwear (even when there was nobody else around - wore them day & night, all the time). I paid what you like to call "tithing," even though it's actually tax-free support for a highly profitable corporation operating outside of the intent of the law.

When I learned this was all a one-way deal and the church doesn't return the same courtesies to members, I resigned. So I don't play the game anymore. I guess you'll have to make up the loss of my tithing somewhere else.

#8
Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

I can answer this question as a NOM while understanding a TBM intention. My answer is Yes.

Now for the nuance - I strive to keep covenants made, but focus on those that have importance. I attend sacrament and meetings to the best of my ability (which currently is near zero, but it's the best I can do).

So long as the "Gospel" means the teachings of Christ, I am keeping my life in harmony with it. If the Gospel means teachings of Christ as interpreted by various dudes and refined, changed, cherry picked or at will - then no.

Covenants: no, I don't tithe

Attend meetings: yes, but I hope to attend much less

Live the gospel: yes, taken as meaning treat people how I wish to be treated

Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made: I didn't make them. Some medievil (sp. intentional) stone masons made them. They are weirder now that I know the truth than when I was first traumatized by them back in the late seventies.

to attend your sacrament and other meetings: Again, these are not MY meetings. It's a particular sticking point that the church always make everything look like it's our stuff. Nope. It never was my stuff. It was the corp. churches stuff and I was arm-twisted into thinking it was my stuff.

and to keep your life in harmony: Harmony????!!!!!! HARMONY (insert several more question and exclamation marks of your choosing here). My harmony was completely buggered up by six decades of oppressive, coercive rhetoric that I was peer and family pressured to submit to at the whimsy of my local leaders. Having chosen to sever my connection to the church last January, I have been completely and without so much as a thank-you note with a cool little ribbon hot glue gunned in the upper right corner, separated from my kin and kind. I am alone and lonely surrounded by a sea of BTM's that I wrongly thought were different from the BTM's I was reading about here and other forums. Like many of you, I have been hot-potatoed which is anything but a harmonious experience.

with the laws and commandments of the gospel: The gospel goal posts keep moving, so I'm not sure if this refers to the original laws and commandments prescribed by JS or those tweaked by his successors.

Let me sum up.

I don't:
- pay tithing
- attend any meetings including HT
- have a temple recommend or would recommend it to anyone else
- believe the church was restored with the keys to unlock the dispensations I was told we alone were trustworthy and worthy enough to hold
- wear garments
- know what kind of underwear to buy instead
- keep fake covenants and promises to people who stole ten percent of my entire hard earned income
- call anybody but my blood siblings 'brother' or 'sister'.

I do:
- keep the law of chastity
- continue to be blown away by the natural and prehistoric worlds
- am honest in my dealings with my fellow-people
- keep the word of wisdom - likely always will
- mourn those who have suffered as I
- mourn those who I love and wish were suffering as I so they could learn the truth and I wouldn't be so alone in this nightmare of a reality
- recognize my journey is not yours or even may look remotely like yours and my expressions of what sound like certainty are caveated by the reality that I might be wrong on a number of issues that I currently believe and express as truth
- continue to be inspired by the way NOM members respect and extend a healing hand to those who doubt. Thank you.
- respect and love those I did before I left (except when I anonymously post here and express a bit of frustration which likely sounds disrespectful to others).

NOWmormon wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2017 4:40 am
#8
Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made,

I try to keep the covenants I made with God in regards to caring for my fellow human beings. The "covenants" I made under duress to a corrupt, sexist, homophobic organization don't weight on my mind at all.

NOWmormon wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2017 4:40 am to attend your sacrament and other meetings,

I come and go when I please.

NOWmormon wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2017 4:40 am and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

I try to be a good person and make responsible decisions.

Abinidied wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2017 3:37 pm Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made: I didn't make them. Some medievil (sp. intentional) stone masons made them. They are weirder now that I know the truth than when I was first traumatized by them back in the late seventies.

Thank you so such for your post. I see a kindred spirit in you.

I think I keep my covenants. What were they again?
Law of God. This is the "L" shaped commitment to God and spouse, not the triangle many think it is.
Law of gospel. Forget what this is.
Law of consecration. I take Metamucil daily to avoid this.
Law of chastity. I try to obey that one every chance I get.
Law of sacrifice. Not into killing much anymore.
Law of praising pedophiles. Not much of a JS worshipper anymore.

I always just said yes to this one without too much thought. It is rather vague and after all only asks if you are Striving, so sure, I'm trying to do the stuff that I have to in order to fit in.

This worked until the SP once stopped here and asked me to tell him what the covenants WERE. Ummmmmm.... when you go as infrequently as possible they don't easily come to mind. I suppose if I was actually trying to keep them I would know what they were. Ever since then I have "studied" before the interview in case they throw any extra questions in.

It really begs the question though - if they are so important why aren't they revised as frequently in class as the first vision, the word of wisdom, and the looking after the widows stories.

You covenant to keep the commandments, and as Jesus said, love thy neighbor. I strive to do that (and I suck at it), and I also strive to wake up on Sunday mornings (and I suck at it) so yes.

Let's look at this in three pieces.

1) Striving to keep covenants. Well, sure, and it's a matter of perspective. For example, the law of consecration; right now, keeping my mouth shut on how I really feel is doing my part in building the kingdom. That's how I look at it. And I could say that for everything from baptismal to temple covenants. It's all on how one looks at it.

2) Unless it's changed, one is counted as "active" as long as they attend one sacrament/priesthood meeting a month. As long as I do that, sure I'm active.

3) Again, the gospel is subjective; do I try to do the things Jesus said in the NT? Sure. What a bunch of old white midwest Republicans say? Not so much.

So, this one is all nuance and perspective.

Dravin wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2017 6:28 am
I do not feel beholden to promises made to someone I no longer believe exists. I could be cheeky and talk about the Church's habit of telling people they've entered into covenants when the ordinances involved make no mention of them, but the short of it is if god doesn't exist the supposed covenants I've entered into with him are irrelevant. It's like trying to put the screws to someone for not keeping their promise to Santa Claus to always leave cookies out for him.

Ditto. I also don't think that 8 year olds can enter into eternally binding covenants. And promises made in the temple aren't exactly made with full and complete information nor in an environment where you really have the opportunity to consider and weigh your commitment. There's enough time for everyone to bow and say yes and that's it...

Can of Worms wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2017 7:02 pm
Ditto. I also don't think that 8 year olds can enter into eternally binding covenants. And promises made in the temple aren't exactly made with full and complete information nor in an environment where you really have the opportunity to consider and weigh your commitment. There's enough time for everyone to bow and say yes and that's it...

What really gets me about the temple situation is that you can pour over the text with a fine toothed comb, at no point are the covenants themselves put under an oath of secrecy. The oaths of secrecy entered into refer very narrowly to the names, signs, and tokens shared during the endowment. Yet you'll often find members being extremely vague about what goes on*. Even the temple prep manual beats around the bush when really it should be taking the opportunity to explicitly lay out the covenants made in the temple and their implications. I can understand why it wouldn't go into the secrecy oaths, but there is no doctrinal reason for it not to have a section that reads , "The first covenant entered into is to obey the Law of Lord. For men the Law of the Lord entails a commitment to..."

*Sometimes amusingly so. It was funny seeing members shoot you a "You're not supposed to talk about that!" look when sharing stuff available in church manuals and talks.