NOM

I bought garments this morning. After yet another fight with my wife last night, I realized it’s time to accept that things aren’t going to change without serious, possibly irreparable, damage. So the garment purchase is symbolic to me, a first step in coming to terms with the fact that I’m stuck. I’d been putting it off for some time. For whatever reason, purchasing new ones felt so weighty to me. It felt like a surrender. Now that I’ve actually done it, well, that’s exactly what it feels like.

The most fun thought in all this is that things are likely to be worse going forward. She’s getting after me for even slight slips in churchy stuff. She pounced on me on Mother’s Day when I sulked (her words) through the tithing lesson on Sunday and she expressed frustration about the negative things she was worried I might say about church. That’s right, I didn’t actually say anything, but her anticipation of them got me in trouble. We’re up to thought crimes policing in my house!

This is a sad post. I know it’s whiny. I guess it’s my pathetic way of saying I need some internet love from y’all.

I feel stuck as well. I don't know what would help you. Hang in there. You're not alone. You're not crazy. At our last stake conference, I sneaked (Spell check is objecting to "snuck." I guess my grammar needs improvement.) outside and looked at the beautiful day we were missing. I only got a few minutes, but it felt great to remind myself that there is a world outside church. I have not had the courage to try to give up garments, yet. I'll try that someday.

Things got better for me when I could make statements and express opinions sort of "in passing." They're less the makings of an argument and more just a reflection of who I am now. I have frustrations that may be permanent, but I think some things are clear to my husband: I love him, I will stay faithful to him, and I'm not afraid of the church. I'm happy. I sleep better. The free-floating guilt and anxiety are gone. I'm more curious about the world and want to share my time in it with him.

Charlotte wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2017 8:51 am Things got better for me when I could make statements and express opinions sort of "in passing." They're less the makings of an argument and more just a reflection of who I am now. I have frustrations that may be permanent, but I think some things are clear to my husband: I love him, I will stay faithful to him, and I'm not afraid of the church. I'm happy. I sleep better. The free-floating guilt and anxiety are gone. I'm more curious about the world and want to share my time in it with him.

+1

First, you're not stuck. You're in an extremely difficult transition and these things take time. Communication is the key for these types of changes. I used to feel like you and would get up extra early to shower and throw on normal underwear, get dressed, and out the door so the wife wouldn't know. Later once home I would change out of work clothes and into exercise clothes to justify the normal underwear. I finally realized the mental toll that hiding normal underwear was doing to my self esteem and my psyche. I also had a perpetual bad rash from the polyester mesh garment bottoms that never went away until we were on vacation for a week. I finally broke down and told the wife I was done wearing the bottoms. I replaced them with white boxers so they looked like garments. Over time I switched to colors and the wife never said anything. She got used to the new normal. I wore the cotton t-shirt tops for a long time since they were relatively benign and make a great under shirt for button up collared work shirts. I would change out of them and just wear one T-shirt thus disappointing God. Eventually I stopped wearing the T-shirt to bed which helped my sleep patterns and boosted oxytocin and bonding with Sister Ryder. Finally about 6 months ago the remaining garment tops went into the trash and were replaced with white Hanes undershirts she bought for me.

You're not stuck. You just need to make small changes that lead to the new normal.

Sending internet love and support.

What has worked for me is to just keep being me while being respectfully honest about my issues with the church. We're both adults and make our own choices. Hopefully she'll back up and allow that for you. Hang in there.

*caveat-I do look outwardly liberal TBM and I think that helps/comforts my spouse.

TestimonyLost wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2017 6:07 am This is a sad post. I know it’s whiny. I guess it’s my pathetic way of saying I need some internet love from y’all.

Fluffy internet luvs to you TL. I feel a lot like you, and have no idea how to get un-stuck, so there's that...


I really hope this cowboy is right:

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2017 11:10 am You're not stuck. You just need to make small changes that lead to the new normal.

Off to make hopefully make tiny, fluffy changes that lead to a new (hopefully better) normal...

You are not alone on this. I just managed to switch to normal underwear a few weeks ago...after five+ years of looking at myself in the mirror every morning and feeling embarrassed about the fact that I still had to wear garments to keep peace in my home.

TestimonyLost wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2017 6:07 am
The most fun thought in all this is that things are likely to be worse going forward. She’s getting after me for even slight slips in churchy stuff. She pounced on me on Mother’s Day when I sulked (her words) through the tithing lesson on Sunday and she expressed frustration about the negative things she was worried I might say about church. That’s right, I didn’t actually say anything, but her anticipation of them got me in trouble. We’re up to thought crimes policing in my house!

P.S. and fwiw, I used to be this spouse - ultra-sensitive, aware, worried, critical of how my husband and kids were or were not interacting with the church. I can't explain it. A therapist could. I have channeled (almost) all of that energy into what I consider better things. I would say try to concentrate of having good times, peaceful Sundays, authentic and loving family and couple time, and wait for things to settle. She probably is quite worried.

Wow dude, so sorry. It's a painful place to be. It seems your attempts to express your cogdis in the past has made her hypersensitive now to all things not on the mormon straight and narrow. If you can suck it up right now, try to show forth an increase in love. Once it settles down, hopefully it will, you could start to try and show her how this cogdis impacts you emotionally. It was the sincere emotional stress my DW saw that provided me some empathy from her when she was still a TBM. She still didn't want to talk about specifics, but it changed over time.

Hang in there bro! We are here for you!

TestimonyLost wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2017 6:07 am So the garment purchase is symbolic to me, a first step in coming to terms with the fact that I’m stuck. I’d been putting it off for some time. For whatever reason, purchasing new ones felt so weighty to me. It felt like a surrender. Now that I’ve actually done it, well, that’s exactly what it feels like.

I recently moved to a new ward and felt the same thing. Quitting one ward and going to another was like a surrender. Going from TBM to NOM was like peeling off a band aid. I'd peeled the bandage off so far, but now it's stuck back on and I have to start the peeling all over again. Starting in a new ward, new leadership, new callings to say no to, new VT to train not to give me the stupid message, it's a weight that is quite heavy to bear. And it's the recognition that I'm stuck.

I'm sorry to hear about your situation. It sounds really difficult and annoying to have your thoughts and feelings micromanaged. I don't have any suggestions to make it better. Maybe the passage of time will help.

Yeah, it does get better. I find that being sincere about the trauma the learned facts caused you, remaining as positive as possible, and doubling down on your commitment to her will go a long way.

DW is coming along in what she calls her apostate skepticism that has rubbed off on her. She knows I drink coffee. She knows I want to skip church as much as we can justify with family trips. She knows I occasionally wear normal underwear(but I generally don't so he I've gotta wear something).

I still have boundaries to push but I am taking it slowly.

I hear you and empathize. I am the poster child for "go slow" and can identify with feeling stuck.

I have refused to buy garments since I felt like I was being judged by the imperious lady checking me out at the distribution center (I didn't have a current recommend to make her job easier). So I only get new ones if my wife buys them. In the mean time I have been tossing the worn ones and buying normal underwear so that I am currently about 30% gentile. I also lose the top layer in the summer. My DW, bless her heart, has mostly expressed concern for my lack of magical protection when going gentile.

Hang in there, we're all pulling for you.

Tough deal man. Try to get away without a top on hot days, that is how I started. Since most days in the Old Pueblo were hot, this was quite often.

A few things here.

What are your wife's underlying fears? Losing you in the eternities? You negatively influencing the kids so she loses them in the eternities? YOu start drinking in bars - which leads to picking up women in bars? Losing face in your mormon community? You not being able to bless the kids in ill-health/emergency? You will change, become less christlike = less compassionate/less loving/distant

My wife expressed that she thought I would try and make up for not sowing my wild oats as a teenager - that took a bit of digging to find out. She also made the point that the faith transition was driving us apart and when we got married we were perfectly aligned. I made the point that over the last 20 years I grown to love her infinitesimally more than the day we got married.

I have let my wife know that I will be coming out fully to the kids at the end of summer, she understands that the church is probably not what it claims (but prefers to press on with head in the sand for now) and we still had a heated debate (tears) - she would prefer that I would play along and not rock the boat. So I know this is tough, and that's even when you have an understanding wife, as I do.

Your spouse sounds pretty black and white, in terms of thinking? Would she listen to the Bill Reel Mormon Podcast episode that is directed at showing close TBM friends and family why things (church history and doctrine) can be viewed as a little 'messy'. There is also the book 'When Mormons Doubt: A Way to Save Relationships and Seek a Quality of Life" - I must confess it lies on my bedside unread, but the book is aimed at people like your wife and you.

Perhaps you give it a year or longer. But you have a time in mind by which you want resolution to be true to yourself. My shelf cracked 2 years ago this summer. I am still active, hold a calling, do not have a TR and plan not to wear garms at the end of summer - I don't tithe either. But for me this is a process, it would be far too painful for Mrs RJ for me to drop everything at once. Obviously everyone picks their own approach.

Is it worth considering a marriage therapist who is balanced to help? - cheaper than divorce, If your in the morridor John Dehlin might be able to put you in contact with a marriage counselor who is mormon and balanced, which might help appease your wife.

At some point though you might have to ask yourself what's the worst thing that can happen if you are true to your own convictions after trying sincerely and failing to get validation from your spouse? What does divorce mean? Does it mean financial ruin and sleeping in a basement? or does it mean a small modest apartment? Does it mean sharing the kids or no access? Is it better to live with underlying tension and frustration than living separately?


You feel stuck, but you are not, there are options. My advice, FWIW is move slowly, move respectfully, but ultimately do not be mentally controlled by any organisation or individual. There is always a way forward - even if the path is tough.

Good luck my friend

As a fellow stuckee, all I can do is offer my sympathy. It's not a great place to be. A lot of emotions to unravel there, and the best advice I've ever heard on this board (I wish I could give credit, but I can't remember who said it!!) is that I love my wife more than I can't stand the church. That helps with my level of stuckiness, but I've been dealing with this for almost all of our marriage, and I've gotten progressively more outspoken the last 5 years or so. So your wife just might need to process some of this.

As to the garments thing, I might have a suggestion, and I'm probably in the minority here from what I read. I still wear them, they make the wife happy, and they're just my underwear. That's it. I don't feel any sense of covenant keeping or the magical protection of spiritual underarmor. They're just a level of protection to keep my pants clean. End of story. There's a lot of other hills for me to die on, this ain't one of them. I feel fortunate that I find the missus still quite cute in hers, but then again if she wore a garbage bag with the holes cut out I'd still find her quite attractive (typical guy, I know!)

But I would understand if this was your hill to die on, I know some people can't stand them. I'd just rather insist on making my level of participation as limited as possible, rather than worry about what underwear I'm wearing, however stupid they look. THAT'S a hill I want to die on; if she insisted that I come to all three hours every Sunday, go to priesthood meeting, etc. etc. when I just don't want to, well, that's just not going to happen anymore. I decide what I do, and when I do it. I'm a grown man after all; the sooner I think that both couples realize that the other spouse is an adult and can do what they want to, a lot of this goes by the wayside. But man, it's a lot of negotiation, letting go and/or holding firm. Life and relationships are just dang complicated, that's what I've come to understand.

I feel for you. My spouse is probably a bit more accepting but I don't know how far I will be able to push the limits of that acceptance. I also feel very stuck. I think sometimes that I will be able to let loose once my kids are married but it never ends - one day there will be grandkids and would I be happy to miss their weddings? I have no answers for you but plenty of sympathy.

I am in a similar position. I wear garments even though I don't want to.

Occasionally I will not put on a top if I think I can get away with it when it is really hot. I am not sure if my wife has noticed or not. It is my small way of protest and it makes me feel a lot better about myself.

oliblish wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2017 9:08 am I am in a similar position. I wear garments even though I don't want to.

Occasionally I will not put on a top if I think I can get away with it when it is really hot. I am not sure if my wife has noticed or not. It is my small way of protest and it makes me feel a lot better about myself.

You could quote John Taylor, who was an eyewitness to the martyrdom. He clarified that the garments were not removed out of fear, but that they were sometimes removed because of the hot weather.

Mormorrisey wrote:As a fellow stuckee, all I can do is offer my sympathy. It's not a great place to be. A lot of emotions to unravel there, and the best advice I've ever heard on this board (I wish I could give credit, but I can't remember who said it!!) is that I love my wife more than I can't stand the church.

Corsair says this all the time.

Thanks so much for all the support! It means a lot to know I'm not alone and there are others who see hope in my situation.

blazerb wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2017 7:11 am At our last stake conference, I sneaked (Spell check is objecting to "snuck." I guess my grammar needs improvement.) outside and looked at the beautiful day we were missing. I only got a few minutes, but it felt great to remind myself that there is a world outside church.

I need to take more pleasure in the little things like that. Like the rare occasion I get to miss Sunday School (especially hard this year with the D&C).

Charlotte wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2017 8:51 am Things got better for me when I could make statements and express opinions sort of "in passing." They're less the makings of an argument and more just a reflection of who I am now.

I’d be interested in a little more detail here. When I say things in passing that are negative about the church, it never goes over well. How did you get to a place with your spouse that they could be more accepting?

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2017 11:10 am First, you're not stuck. You're in an extremely difficult transition and these things take time. Communication is the key for these types of changes. I used to feel like you and would get up extra early to shower and throw on normal underwear, get dressed, and out the door so the wife wouldn't know. Later once home I would change out of work clothes and into exercise clothes to justify the normal underwear. I finally realized the mental toll that hiding normal underwear was doing to my self esteem and my psyche. I also had a perpetual bad rash from the polyester mesh garment bottoms that never went away until we were on vacation for a week. I finally broke down and told the wife I was done wearing the bottoms. I replaced them with white boxers so they looked like garments. Over time I switched to colors and the wife never said anything. She got used to the new normal. I wore the cotton t-shirt tops for a long time since they were relatively benign and make a great under shirt for button up collared work shirts. I would change out of them and just wear one T-shirt thus disappointing God. Eventually I stopped wearing the T-shirt to bed which helped my sleep patterns and boosted oxytocin and bonding with Sister Ryder. Finally about 6 months ago the remaining garment tops went into the trash and were replaced with white Hanes undershirts she bought for me.

You're not stuck. You just need to make small changes that lead to the new normal.

Always appreciate your optimism and helpful advice, RR. I'm still looking for that first small thing that my wife can accept.

Anon70 wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2017 11:21 am Sending internet love and support.

What has worked for me is to just keep being me while being respectfully honest about my issues with the church. We're both adults and make our own choices. Hopefully she'll back up and allow that for you. Hang in there.

*caveat-I do look outwardly liberal TBM and I think that helps/comforts my spouse.

Thanks for the kind words of support! When we discuss changes, she doesn’t really think about it being an issue of me making my own choices. All she can see is that we’d be out of sync and I think the implications of that scare her.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2017 11:59 am Fluffy internet luvs to you TL. I feel a lot like you, and have no idea how to get un-stuck, so there's that...

Thanks fluff. We’re not alone!

Stig wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2017 1:36 pm You are not alone on this. I just managed to switch to normal underwear a few weeks ago...after five+ years of looking at myself in the mirror every morning and feeling embarrassed about the fact that I still had to wear garments to keep peace in my home.

Did you make that decision unilaterally or did you finally bring your spouse around to accept it first?

Charlotte wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2017 3:01 pm P.S. and fwiw, I used to be this spouse - ultra-sensitive, aware, worried, critical of how my husband and kids were or were not interacting with the church. I can't explain it. A therapist could. I have channeled (almost) all of that energy into what I consider better things. I would say try to concentrate of having good times, peaceful Sundays, authentic and loving family and couple time, and wait for things to settle. She probably is quite worried.

Always hopeful to hear about TBMs that have softened. I don’t think my wife will ever leave the church, but I am hopeful she can accept a new version of me.

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2017 3:32 pm It was the sincere emotional stress my DW saw that provided me some empathy from her when she was still a TBM. She still didn't want to talk about specifics, but it changed over time.

Hang in there bro! We are here for you!

Thanks Rubin! I actually think my wife finally sees how it’s affecting me emotionally. I believe it’s the only reason she’s even still keeping the conversation going. She intellectually understands that things need to change for my emotional state but emotionally she can’t imagine any change actually happening. I don’t know what I can do to help her reconcile those thoughts.

MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2017 4:44 pm I recently moved to a new ward and felt the same thing. Quitting one ward and going to another was like a surrender. Going from TBM to NOM was like peeling off a band aid. I'd peeled the bandage off so far, but now it's stuck back on and I have to start the peeling all over again. Starting in a new ward, new leadership, new callings to say no to, new VT to train not to give me the stupid message, it's a weight that is quite heavy to bear. And it's the recognition that I'm stuck.

Sorry, MM. At least we’ve got each other here at NOM!

MalcolmVillager wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2017 6:16 pm I still have boundaries to push but I am taking it slowly.

Do you generally push those boundaries on your own or do you work it with your spouse first? I sometimes wonder if I shouldn’t just start making changes and hoping she can come to accept them. It feels so wrong, but talking it out with her has not proved fruitful.

DPRoberts wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2017 7:18 pm I hear you and empathize. I am the poster child for "go slow" and can identify with feeling stuck.

If you don't mind sharing, what’s your “go slow” story?

Raylan Givens wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2017 8:33 pm Tough deal man. Try to get away without a top on hot days, that is how I started. Since most days in the Old Pueblo were hot, this was quite often.

Ha! That reminds me of my dad who’s an active and faithful member but he’s always said “life is a sporting event” to justify no garments as often as possible. He lives in hot, humid Florida so I can understand.

redjay wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2017 2:46 am What are your wife's underlying fears? Losing you in the eternities? You negatively influencing the kids so she loses them in the eternities? YOu start drinking in bars - which leads to picking up women in bars? Losing face in your mormon community? You not being able to bless the kids in ill-health/emergency? You will change, become less christlike = less compassionate/less loving/distant

My wife expressed that she thought I would try and make up for not sowing my wild oats as a teenager - that took a bit of digging to find out. She also made the point that the faith transition was driving us apart and when we got married we were perfectly aligned. I made the point that over the last 20 years I grown to love her infinitesimally more than the day we got married.

I’m not sure exactly what my wife fears. I don’t think she fears I’m going to start cheating on her. She’s very practical so I think she mostly worries that if we hold different standards it will make life messier in general (what do we teach the kids? etc.). Of course, she’s not wrong that it will be more difficult.

Your spouse sounds pretty black and white, in terms of thinking? Would she listen to the Bill Reel Mormon Podcast episode that is directed at showing close TBM friends and family why things (church history and doctrine) can be viewed as a little 'messy'. There is also the book 'When Mormons Doubt: A Way to Save Relationships and Seek a Quality of Life" - I must confess it lies on my bedside unread, but the book is aimed at people like your wife and you.

I haven’t tried any material except for a few things I’ve collected from LDS therapists (Kristy Money and the lady who posted on BCC a few months ago) about communication between mixed-faith people. I actually think she gets why I don’t believe anymore but she doesn’t get why I’d want to change my standards. And in those arguments, I always feel like I across as some petulant kid, “But I wanna watch Game of Thrones!”

Perhaps you give it a year or longer. But you have a time in mind by which you want resolution to be true to yourself. My shelf cracked 2 years ago this summer. I am still active, hold a calling, do not have a TR and plan not to wear garms at the end of summer - I don't tithe either. But for me this is a process, it would be far too painful for Mrs RJ for me to drop everything at once. Obviously everyone picks their own approach.

Is it worth considering a marriage therapist who is balanced to help? - cheaper than divorce, If your in the morridor John Dehlin might be able to put you in contact with a marriage counselor who is mormon and balanced, which might help appease your wife.

At some point though you might have to ask yourself what's the worst thing that can happen if you are true to your own convictions after trying sincerely and failing to get validation from your spouse? What does divorce mean? Does it mean financial ruin and sleeping in a basement? or does it mean a small modest apartment? Does it mean sharing the kids or no access? Is it better to live with underlying tension and frustration than living separately?

You feel stuck, but you are not, there are options. My advice, FWIW is move slowly, move respectfully, but ultimately do not be mentally controlled by any organisation or individual. There is always a way forward - even if the path is tough.

Thanks for taking the time for that long response. I’m nowhere near wanting a divorce. I really do love my wife. And I think my life post-divorce it would be sad and lonely. I don’t have much in the way of friends. If I lose my wife and kids, I don’t know what I’d do.

Mormorrisey wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2017 4:29 am As to the garments thing, I might have a suggestion, and I'm probably in the minority here from what I read. I still wear them, they make the wife happy, and they're just my underwear. That's it. I don't feel any sense of covenant keeping or the magical protection of spiritual underarmor. They're just a level of protection to keep my pants clean. End of story. There's a lot of other hills for me to die on, this ain't one of them. I feel fortunate that I find the missus still quite cute in hers, but then again if she wore a garbage bag with the holes cut out I'd still find her quite attractive (typical guy, I know!)

But I would understand if this was your hill to die on, I know some people can't stand them. I'd just rather insist on making my level of participation as limited as possible, rather than worry about what underwear I'm wearing, however stupid they look. THAT'S a hill I want to die on; if she insisted that I come to all three hours every Sunday, go to priesthood meeting, etc. etc. when I just don't want to, well, that's just not going to happen anymore. I decide what I do, and when I do it. I'm a grown man after all; the sooner I think that both couples realize that the other spouse is an adult and can do what they want to, a lot of this goes by the wayside. But man, it's a lot of negotiation, letting go and/or holding firm. Life and relationships are just dang complicated, that's what I've come to understand.

Garments aren’t my number one problem. In fact, I’m more like you in that they’d probably be the last thing I’d want to give up. Buying new ones was something I’d been putting off for a long time and, for a while, I’d hoped maybe I’d never buy another pair again. So when I finally gave in it was an admission that things aren’t changing anytime soon which was tough to swallow.

LostGirl wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2017 4:37 am I feel for you. My spouse is probably a bit more accepting but I don't know how far I will be able to push the limits of that acceptance. I also feel very stuck. I think sometimes that I will be able to let loose once my kids are married but it never ends - one day there will be grandkids and would I be happy to miss their weddings? I have no answers for you but plenty of sympathy.

I’m in the midst of a long line of baptisms of all my kids that will lead straight into temple marriages. I understand the feeling that there’s no good time to break away from the church.

oliblish wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2017 9:08 am Occasionally I will not put on a top if I think I can get away with it when it is really hot. I am not sure if my wife has noticed or not. It is my small way of protest and it makes me feel a lot better about myself.

I can relate to the small protests. I swear a lot to myself. It’s a little thing that helps me get by. I feel like I can’t control much about my life, but dammit I’m going to swear when I feel like it! Silently and in my own head, of course, but I’m going to do it!

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2017 10:35 am You could quote John Taylor, who was an eyewitness to the martyrdom. He clarified that the garments were not removed out of fear, but that they were sometimes removed because of the hot weather.

I’ve tried to point out that the Word of Wisdom was handled very differently in the early days of the church, but that just ticks my wife off!

I don't have the eloquence nor profound statements as do many here. I can only offer my sympathies that I (and most everyone here) can understand this frustration. It sucks.

Fortunately, garments have been in my rear view mirror for several months now. Ironically, I still wear a bottom and undershirt frequently enough that cover very similarly what G's did. Only now in something other that white.

Keep on trucking. The sun will keep on shining and things get better if we keep at it.

Side note - MeUndies.com are freaking awesome! The COB could learn a thing or two by simply using this fabric in the authorized pattern.