NOM

My title is taken from the title of an article in Skeptic magazine by Peter Boghossian. He points out that we all use evidence to substantiate our beliefs. Even Flat Earthers have their evidence(it just doesn't make sense). Boghossian suggests instead of using evidence to change a person's mind, ask them what could potentially undermine their belief. Say for example: I don't believe Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham from Papyri. On a scale of 1-10, I'm about 9.5 certain of this. What type of evidence would get me down to a 7 or an 8? What would make me change my mind. Or, conversely, I believe the Book of Abraham is authentic history, on a scale of 1-10 I'm about a 1. Would would get me up to a 4 or 5?
It actually makes clear that changing people's minds quite difficult, but then, I knew that already.
He also uses the word defeasibility, which means a possibility that a belief can be revised.

It's basically confirmation bias; that is, the phenomenon he appears to be describing.

I am so far gone- the only thing that would change my mind is a visit from Jesus himself.

One popular way to work with a polite believer is asking very similar questions:

1. If the church were false, would you want to know?
2. How would you know if the LDS church was false?

Believing friends and family that hesitate, or answer "no" on question number 1 are generally not interested in seriously talking about issues. Question 2 would then sounds like a corruption of gaining an LDS testimony.

It seems reasonable that in our various levels of skepticism and unbelief that there are honest questions that we should consider:

1. If the church were true, would you want to know?
2. How would you know if the LDS church was true?

Question 2 is largely how missionaries operate although the "witness of the spirit" seems less reliable and exact than "feel good" emotions. Question 1 is very reasonable, but it could also be asked of every faith that mortals have ever conceived.

I wonder if it's possible to change people's mindsets rather than their minds on a single idea. Seems like getting people to be more critical in a basic way is the key to improving understanding. I'm not particularly optimistic about that one either TBH.

A more realistic goal would be to understand another person's point of view. Start by saying," I would like to listen to you explain your point of view for 5 minutes if you would listen to my point of view for 5 minutes."

The next step could be, I'll try to explain what you believe for five minutes if you will try to explain what I believe for five minutes.

I'm spiritual more than religious. I'm more comfortable with the philosophies of the religions. Once the "magic", enters the picture, things get weird and frequently evil. Without changing the doctrines (because I don't see them changing, unfortunately), I propose changes to the structure that will make things more comfortable for Mormons of all stripes and a more realistic fit for the modern age.

Temple

Make garments temple only

Have​ tithing be online and keep it between the member and the Lord.

The WofW isn't supposed to be a commandment, thus saith the Lord, have his back on that.

Let a couple be married civilly where and by whom they want and eliminate the one year sealing wait. The temple is no longer a wedding venue.

Put in a meditation sanctuary. People should still change out of their street clothes. People might want a respite from the world, but don't always have time to do a full session. Give people--especially working families and single parents--a shorter option.

HT/VT

Aside from the calling tree, this program is uncomfortable, rude, invasive and creepy. Overhaul it and make it useful or eliminate it. Simpler to eliminate.

Family Home Evening

Beautiful in theory, but frequently used as an abuse session. Make it a suggestion, not a requirement or command. Keep Monday night a church-free sanctuary in time. Love that.

Missions

My current thinking is we need to eliminate these. If people want to be part of us, we wouldn't be able to keep them away.

Voting

Return to common consent

Young Men

Teach them that respecting women goes beyond holding the door for her.
Teach them to take no for an answer, it'll help them avoid a rape charge
Teach them parenting skills
Teach them homemaking skills
Teach them to be responsible for their sexuality.

Young Women

Equalize the budget.

Make Young Women's martial arts training. If we're going to keep the structure patriarchal and keep blaming the women for the harm that comes to them, then they should know how to take down an assailant and the young men should know they know.

Young women should be taught intelligent life design. It's possible to get a very high paying job, work part time and still support a family comfortably, if need be. Career is important and should be taught as a viable possibility, but I agree with the church that the most important thing is raising children. Fact is, a young woman faces a high possibility of being the main or sole breadwinner. If she prepares for that by pursuing high-end paying job options, her family will be more secure.

There are plenty of ways of living a meaningful, fulfilling life besides marriage.


Children

Stop all the early sexualized training and shaming.

Teach self-esteem

Teach modesty as more than just clothing, but as character.

Sunday Structure

Have Sundays be more like a smorgasbord of options. Each option is forty minutes long with a twenty minute break in between. A person can attend one to three options. Options can include:

Standard sermon
Scripture study (aka coed Sunday School)
Men's scripture study
Women's scripture study
Youth ministry
Children's ministry
Praise music
Service
Philosophical discussion
"Tough issues" discussion

Between first and second sessions and between second and third sessions, a ten minute Sacrament service is offered.

Want to worship as a family unit?

Standard sermon
Sacrament service
Praise music
Service

Want to not feel so isolated for being single?

Standard sermon
Sacrament service
Gendered study
Philosophical
Tough issues
Praise music

Want a short Sunday?

Choose one meeting

Want just the Sacrament?

Choose just that

Want a more traditional experience?

The only changes to your Sunday is breaking up the sermon and the sacrament into separate meetings.

Want a more NOM-ish Sunday?

Service
Praise music
Philosophical
Tough issues

Want the full three hours?

Go for it!

Haven't seen you in church for awhile. We haven't been in the same classes. Bummer.

Clergy

Make the bishop an administrator only. Have a paid, trained mental health professional at the stake level. Have all those thorny issues referred to this person. This person is on the church's dole so the church can be sued for advice given. It's an integrity thing. Alternatively, pass a law stating it is illegal for clergy to advise on marriage, rape, abuse, etc.

Give It Time wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2017 9:09 am I'm spiritual more than religious. I'm more comfortable with the philosophies of the religions. Once the "magic", enters the picture, things get weird and frequently evil. Without changing the doctrines (because I don't see them changing, unfortunately), I propose changes to the structure that will make things more comfortable for Mormons of all stripes and a more realistic fit for the modern age.

I would just like to say: damn, this was a mighty fine post.

Enoch Witty wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2017 10:40 am

Give It Time wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2017 9:09 am I'm spiritual more than religious. I'm more comfortable with the philosophies of the religions. Once the "magic", enters the picture, things get weird and frequently evil. Without changing the doctrines (because I don't see them changing, unfortunately), I propose changes to the structure that will make things more comfortable for Mormons of all stripes and a more realistic fit for the modern age.

I would just like to say: damn, this was a mighty fine post.

Why, thank you!

What would change my mind... About what?

The Corporation of the President™?

Religion in general?

Magic?

Ghosts?

Zombies?

Should I have a taco for lunch?

Give It Time wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2017 9:09 am I'm spiritual more than religious. I'm more comfortable with the philosophies of the religions. Once the "magic", enters the picture, things get weird and frequently evil. Without changing the doctrines (because I don't see them changing, unfortunately), I propose changes to the structure that will make things more comfortable for Mormons of all stripes and a more realistic fit for the modern age.

These are some great ideas. LDS leadership could still hold onto exclusive priesthood authority and the "one true church" idea after changes like this go into place. It would make the organization at least interesting for me to stay engaged with. I can't claim that I would go back to believing, but I might want to be part of an organization doing something interesting like this.

Give It Time wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2017 9:09 am Young Women
Make Young Women's martial arts training. If we're going to keep the structure patriarchal and keep blaming the women for the harm that comes to them, then they should know how to take down an assailant and the young men should know they know.

This was requested of me and another elder in the singles ward (by the SO of one of the victims) after a series of incidents, so we set up a few lessons for Muay Thai to see if it was something the ward sisters would like to learn. No takers.

That's quite an ambitious list BTW

wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2017 11:04 am What would change my mind... About what?

The Corporation of the President™?

Religion in general?

Magic?

Ghosts?

Zombies?

Should I have a taco for lunch?

Any or all of the above, but specifically the LDS church.

I really liked your list too, Give It Time. It might not make me believe again, but I can't say as anything would. But such changes would make it good again and worth being part of.

But as far as making me believe again, I can't think of anything. The church is just too wrong. If Jesus himself appeared to me to tell me the church was true, I would react just like Scrooge, when Marley first showed up. I would suggest to the apparition that I don't believe a word he says because he might be a bit of underdone potato.

Mad Jax wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2017 11:31 am

Give It Time wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2017 9:09 am Young Women
Make Young Women's martial arts training. If we're going to keep the structure patriarchal and keep blaming the women for the harm that comes to them, then they should know how to take down an assailant and the young men should know they know.

This was requested of me and another elder in the singles ward (by the SO of one of the victims) after a series of incidents, so we set up a few lessons for Muay Thai to see if it was something the ward sisters would like to learn. No takers.

That's quite an ambitious list BTW

I agree that many of the changes GIT suggested are things the members would refuse to accept if offered. We are too deep into the culture of avoiding conflict and blind belief. Classes where you actually have to think rather than regurgitate answers would just not go over. They would be much too threatening.

And the women are much too socialized into keeping sweet to ever want a self defense class. Before a Mormon woman recognizes the need for self defense, it is past the first time she really needed it and because she had been attacked by someone she trusted.

I used to council rape victims in Ogden UT, and most of them were Mormon. (Well, domestic violence victims too) One of the big issues in helping these women heal is Mormon women are raised in a bubble where they are taught that Mormon men are their protectors, so they don't need to learn to protect themselves. There is never a mention of rape or domestic violence in YW classes, because the way Mormon YW are ASSUMED to stay safe is dress modestly, don't drink, and only date Mormon men. If you are a good girl, you won't ever be in a situation to get raped or have your boyfriend/husband rape or beat you. So, when that turns out not to keep them safe, their world is rather shattered.

So, rather than teaching the YW self defense, it would be a huge improvement to even acknowledge that rape or abuse can happen to good girls. Get the culture out of the myth that God protects the righteous from anything bad, and learn a thing or two from the book of Job. Or the scripture where God says He causes it to rain on the just and the unjust. This business of bad things never happen if you are good leads to a lot of victim blaming and self blame and people looking for what they did wrong to cause the bad thing rather that accepting that s*** happens and healing.

As a rape counselor, if I had a dime for every time I had to tell a rape victim that she/he did nothing wrong, I could retire to a nice cabin overlooking a mountain lake....oh, I already did that.

I think whoever writes the lessons for the YW needs to be beaten to death with the book of Job.

Mad Jax wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2017 11:31 am

Give It Time wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2017 9:09 am Young Women
Make Young Women's martial arts training. If we're going to keep the structure patriarchal and keep blaming the women for the harm that comes to them, then they should know how to take down an assailant and the young men should know they know.

This was requested of me and another elder in the singles ward (by the SO of one of the victims) after a series of incidents, so we set up a few lessons for Muay Thai to see if it was something the ward sisters would like to learn. No takers.

That's quite an ambitious list BTW

Thanks Corsair and MadJax. I'm not surprised that martial arts wouldn't fly, at first. Especially since it isn't sanctioned from on high. However, give it a decade or so and I think it would cycle in.

The list is just a compilation of thoughts I've had recently. I had time to write it, because I took a PTO today for other business.

alas wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2017 1:00 pm I really liked your list too, Give It Time. It might not make me believe again, but I can't say as anything would. But such changes would make it good again and worth being part of.

But as far as making me believe again, I can't think of anything. The church is just too wrong. If Jesus himself appeared to me to tell me the church was true, I would react just like Scrooge, when Marley first showed up. I would suggest to the apparition that I don't believe a word he says because he might be a bit of underdone potato.

Mad Jax wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2017 11:31 am

Give It Time wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2017 9:09 am Young Women
Make Young Women's martial arts training. If we're going to keep the structure patriarchal and keep blaming the women for the harm that comes to them, then they should know how to take down an assailant and the young men should know they know.

This was requested of me and another elder in the singles ward (by the SO of one of the victims) after a series of incidents, so we set up a few lessons for Muay Thai to see if it was something the ward sisters would like to learn. No takers.

That's quite an ambitious list BTW

I agree that many of the changes GIT suggested are things the members would refuse to accept if offered. We are too deep into the culture of avoiding conflict and blind belief. Classes where you actually have to think rather than regurgitate answers would just not go over. They would be much too threatening.

And the women are much too socialized into keeping sweet to ever want a self defense class. Before a Mormon woman recognizes the need for self defense, it is past the first time she really needed it and because she had been attacked by someone she trusted.

I used to council rape victims in Ogden UT, and most of them were Mormon. (Well, domestic violence victims too) One of the big issues in helping these women heal is Mormon women are raised in a bubble where they are taught that Mormon men are their protectors, so they don't need to learn to protect themselves. There is never a mention of rape or domestic violence in YW classes, because the way Mormon YW are ASSUMED to stay safe is dress modestly, don't drink, and only date Mormon men. If you are a good girl, you won't ever be in a situation to get raped or have your boyfriend/husband rape or beat you. So, when that turns out not to keep them safe, their world is rather shattered.

So, rather than teaching the YW self defense, it would be a huge improvement to even acknowledge that rape or abuse can happen to good girls. Get the culture out of the myth that God protects the righteous from anything bad, and learn a thing or two from the book of Job. Or the scripture where God says He causes it to rain on the just and the unjust. This business of bad things never happen if you are good leads to a lot of victim blaming and self blame and people looking for what they did wrong to cause the bad thing rather that accepting that s*** happens and healing.

As a rape counselor, if I had a dime for every time I had to tell a rape victim that she/he did nothing wrong, I could retire to a nice cabin overlooking a mountain lake....oh, I already did that.

I think whoever writes the lessons for the YW needs to be beaten to death with the book of Job.

I'm sorry I missed this, before. I just woke from a nap. That must be it.

I think martial arts is a radical change, but I still think it could work if it was rolled out from the powers that be and they just said, "make it so". However, what you say about teaching correct principals about DV, molestation and rape is absolutely correct.

I have come to the conclusion that, though a person may mean well, they may mean well, if they haven't been raped, molested or abused or are not a trained professional in the field, they need to zip it. Just zip it. That goes for bishops, SPs, VTs, RSPs, neighbors, GAs, lesson manual authors. That's why I put that line about it's being illegal to discuss these topics with victims and perps, if they're clergy.

I'm trying hard to compile a list that doesn't change doctrine, because I just don't think that'll happen. Ironic, because my issues are doctrinal. Alas is absolutely right on this, though. This does need to be changed and, unfortunately, I think this will be like science: progress will be made one death at a time. Barring changing the temple ceremonies because, to me, those are the root of the problem.

De-emphasize the importance of the temple. Just simply mention it less.
De-emphasize the importance of the priesthood​.
Just simply talk about Christ's ministry, rather than his priesthood.

Next, rewrite the standard lesson manuals with the help of *gasp* prominent feminists. I know, for a fact, they exist in this church and three of the ones I know are members in very good standing. They do exist. Some of these prominent Mormon feminists are also mental health professionals. Handy and efficient.

Next change. Adding a few more classes to the break out session possibilities.

Classes for former/healing victims (curriculum written by and classes taught by mental health professionals​)
That stake level representative can use this time to have private sessions with perpetrators and victims. Since my proposed model makes the congregation essentially a sand dunes on Sunday, this can very easily be used to protect the individuals' dignity (not that I think perps need their dignity protected, but this is a religion we're dealing with).

Good question, DB, and I think Taco Tuesday is a good thing.

crossmyheart wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2017 6:32 am I am so far gone- the only thing that would change my mind is a visit from Jesus himself.

+1, I'd need a "Paul on the Road to Emmaus"-type of experience.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2017 12:53 pm

wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2017 11:04 am Should I have a taco for lunch?

Any or all of the above, but specifically the LDS church.

Ah, good. Evidence showed that I didn't have the resources available to have a taco for lunch, so I changed my mind and had a chicken wrap.

We could all have some fun with this, but I'm going to keep it in a serious tone.

First of all, I am encouraged by the movement in the LDS church with the "Just Serve" movement. I love it.

We really don't need a church to advise us that our happiness depends on our willingness to serve our fellow humans, and we all durn well know it. We do. The only thing left is to get to a point where we do it for the joy of it- not for some eternal reward for crying out loud. Just serve. It was Einstein who said, "I am happiest when I serve, and happier still when I am able to serve better by having learned to serve better and applying it." I'm no Einstein, but I agree with that.

Serve. Learn. Serve better. No hidden meaning here. No secret hand shake. No special undergarments. Just serve.

The Church needs to be less corporate and more human. No more news feeds on giving a million bucks to the Red Cross.

Just serve. It is as simple as that.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2017 3:02 pm

deacon blues wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2017 12:53 pm

wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2017 11:04 am Should I have a taco for lunch?

Any or all of the above, but specifically the LDS church.

Ah, good. Evidence showed that I didn't have the resources available to have a taco for lunch, so I changed my mind and had a chicken wrap.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Made my night.

I want to add: I loved Give It Time's list. I'd go back to church, well, I'd go back to full activity, it they did half the stuff. Adding martial arts for women is a cool idea.