NOM

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/ ... Primer.pdf

Introduction:
The major aim of writing this article is to display various perspectives on Mormonism’s most controversial issues. Herein, we share the Orthodox, Apologetic, Critical, and Progressive viewpoints together with resources helpful to the reader at the end of each chapter, that the reader may explore each issue further.
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My effort with the work above was to create a document that could be shared without being seen as anti or negative, cover the major issues so as to expose the problematic issues in a way that a loved one could hear it and also grasp by the end the messiness of Mormonism and hence be more empathetic to the struggle. I also wanted to provide the info in a very short consolidated way while leaving a breadcrumb trail into the deeper dives and down the rabbit hole of Mormonism. I welcome any feedback.... positive or negative. This took me several months and I truly did it to provide a shareable document that would help one in a faith transition safely tell a part of their story without being labeled.

This is a good summary document. It looks like a fair assessment of the major points of view for each issue without necessarily favoring one above the others. While I am a big fan of MormonThink, this is much closer to the format that our believing family members might appreciate more. It's a good balance that I have not seen elsewhere.

Well done! I liked that it was simple and to the point. Easy to read and follow.

dbmormon wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2017 8:19 amMy effort with the work above was to create a document that could be shared without being seen as anti or negative, cover the major issues so as to expose the problematic issues in a way that a loved one could hear it and also grasp by the end the messiness of Mormonism and hence be more empathetic to the struggle. I also wanted to provide the info in a very short consolidated way while leaving a breadcrumb trail into the deeper dives and down the rabbit hole of Mormonism.

I think your document does the job just as you intended and agree it would be a perfect tool to help others with some of those "problematic issues." Thank you for doing this.

Overall, I really like it. What I read seems balanced and I would much rather refer a TBM loved one to this to try to nderstand my issues with the church than anything else I have seen. I don't want to criticize things like the CES letter or John D's stuff, but this has a better feel because it gives both sides to the story, and to me, that is kind of like me saying to my DH that I want to understand his position too and that I am OK with what he believes. Don't know if that makes sense to anyone else.

Two thoughts:

1. On your chapter on the history of women, one of the BIGGIES you left out is the temple ceremony. Check out Feminist Mormon Housewives series about women who find the ceremony very hurtful in order to better understand that point of view. There are several problems with the temple from the hearken vow, to veiling faces for prayer to giving ourselves to our husbands but he does not give himself to us.

2. LGBT issues deserve a chapter with as many people who left over prop 8 to the resignations over the exclusion policy.

I know, it is hard to include everything without getting into a twenty volume series, but I do think those issues are important to women and progressives. But then I didn't leave the church over historical issues, but the social progressive issues like women's issues and LGBT issues because I have a married lesbian daughter and the temple is the one thing that did the most to push me out of the church and you didn't even mention either issue. You are focused more on the historical issues, and I would understand if you want to keep that as your focus. I just think more people leave over gay/women's issues than do over the history. The history is just kind of the proof that what our gut tells us is correct that the church is not led by God.

I really like this a lot. My dad is starting to ask questions about the issues I have with the church in the sense that he really wants to know. I have been debating whether or not to direct him to the CES letter. The thing with the CES letter is that it hits pretty hard, and it can be seen by some as "just anti-mormon lies" and cause them to double down in their belief if they are not ready to consider that the church has many problematic issues. This seems a lot softer and more balanced, but still gets the issues out there. The sources are great also, with many that most TBMs will recognize and see as valid. Thank you for doing this.

Great work, Bill. I have one major observation and a seconding of the sentiments of alas.

I would abandon the word "progressive" for one reason--it is too easily confusable with its political definition, whereas it is possible for a person with conservative political views to have your "progressive" views on church history. I think you should go with "nuanced" instead. "Progressive" is a dirty word for many people who would be most helped by this document.

I would second alas's comments. I personally left the church not over historical issues, but social ones. If the church had not so badly messed up its teachings and practice on LGBT issues, I might still be a member. Alas (no pun intended) it was not to be. I am not a woman, and have not had the female perspective on the church, but it isn't hard for me to see that the role of women in the church is messed up. I can see how deeply damaging the "ghosts of eternal polygamy" are, along with condescending teachings about the priesthood and "women's place" in the patriarchal society of the church.

DB I downloaded this the other day off FB. I have only skimmed it but love the layout and tone. I love your podcast and it carries a similar delivery style which I think is non-threatening enough to share with TBM's (probably after the Essays). I hope to share with my increasingly nuanced wife when she is ready.

+1 on the temple issues. It story is very long, but the term of my issues is with the temple. I have a cafeteria Mormon sister who has issues with the temple. The same ones I do. I have a TBM friend who just divulged her issues with the temple to me. Her issues are all the signs and handshakes and the fact that a little memorized passage is what's going to keep her out of the CK. Not whether or not she was righteous and obedient. Not whether she was kind and loving. Not whether she accepted Jesus as her Savior. It was whether or not she did the bit at the veil correctly.

In fact, this is just on the moment. I think any woman who has any issue with the church for reasons that are patriarchal, it all boils down to the temple and what we are taught in there.

Accidental double post. Now I understand one of the ways it happens.

Remove the wiki citation.

Too easy for someone to say - he uses wikipedia, his sources are not credible.

It always amazes me when people in the church say "have you checked their (critics'/progressives' etc.) sources" especially when I know they have never looked at anything but correlated materials and have NEVER checked the sources to those materials.

BTW the podcast goes from strength to strength.

Bill, giving the "Role Of Women In The Church throughout Church History", I gotta add how I appreciate your measured and balanced approach.

I would suggest adding a statement about women's views not being considered necessary. I think necessary is an important word. Utilizing a personal example, the man who is now my ex would issue edicts regarding our children or our family, yet his opinion would be entirely born out of his limited view. He would never consider that I know the scholastic, dietary, mental, emotional and physical states of our children and he would make some sort of proclamation about what we were doing and completely railroad over and derail any of our children's needs or schedules. I would advocate, but my view wasn't considered necessary and he'd swat it away as if it were an annoying insect. This was an example of family drama, but I'm sure this type of thing happens on a very regular basis at the ward, stake and general level. As Chieko Okazaki asked when presented with a preview copy of "The Family: A Proclamation To The World", why weren't the women consulted?

It's not just that women aren't consulted or included, it's that their views aren't considered necessary. That's really the message behind the exclusion.


I think your primer is really excellent.

I really like that you present each item from four viewpoints. That's a huge step forward.

I agree with others that women in the temple is just too big a thing to leave unsaid. The status quo is that we're so high on Wise Mother Eve, but just wait 'til those girls actually get in there and hear what's what.

i am reading these and we are revising the document based on suggested edits of a lot of folks including these here

I really like how you separated the "orthodox position" from the "apologetic position." It's amazing to me how much difference there can be between the two in some cases. Yet, at church the two are conflated all the time. Thank you.

version 2.0

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/ ... rimer2.pdf

Your section on the temple completely misses the point that bothers women. Who cares about the Masonic connection. Seriously, that is a man's perspective and once again approaching loss of testimony from problems with the history. Who cares about the history. Look at what the temple is TODAY.

The problem is the hierarchy set up that goes, God>man>woman. My husband is NOT my intermediary with God. He is NOT my god. I can speak directly to God. I do not have to hearken any more to my husband than he does to me. I do not want to be a priestess to my god husband in the same way he is a priest to the real God. The whole endowment is set up for poligamy with women as the property of men. It is extremely offensive to any woman who pays attention.

Please Go to Feminist Mormon Housewives and read their essay on the Mormon Priestess. Read the long version that takes a password to get into and then THINK about this from a woman's perspective. Begin to understand the sexism in the temple that is left over from polygamy.

The temple ceremony is the biggest insult to my relationship with God that I have ever experienced in my life and the temple is the biggest reason that I lost my testimony that the Mormon church is anything but a bunch of men in it for power.

The problem with the temple is today, now. Not its origins, but what it is now in its current form.

After thinking about it some more, I think you should leave your primer the way it is and leave it for another time or person to write a primer on all the current reasons someone could be unhappy with current church doctrine or policy. Your write up of historical issues is excellent, it just fails to take into account the reasons someone would reject the church on what it is today rather than on its weak foundation.

Current problems is just as long and complex as is the exploration of the weak foundation, and just tweaking what you have will not cover the issues. So, rather than suggest that you are about half finished, I think leaving the issues that the modern church has to someone else or for your second volume, is the best option.

But an outline might be

Corporate structure and goals
Malls and other financial investments
All money that the church has comes originally from member donations, thus it is all tithing
What would Jesus do with extra money
Treating members like employees and having them meet the needs of the church rather than the church
meeting the needs of members
Unpaid clergy?
The top leaders in the church are paid
While the bottom layers of leadership suffer from lack of training in how to minister and thus make terrible mistakes
counseling individuals with problems such as rape, domestic violence, child sexual abuse
Black's & priesthood
How it changed from outside pressure
Changing doctrine/punishing people for stating what used to be taught as doctrine
Women's issues
Scouting compared to program for girls/YW
Lack of voice in church
Lack of actual doctrine on Mother in Heaven
Confessions and TR of women with a male leader
Temple
Women's ordination
Women used to give blessings
LGBT issues
Medical research shows that
Gays are born that way
History of conversion therapy (not a past issue as people still have scars
Advice to marry heterosexually and the damage this advice caused
Transgender is a real thing
Many issues can cause a person to have a brain sexualized differently than their body
To say that God wouldn't do that to a person denies the fact that such people exist
When a person is born intersex, and the doc decides if the baby is a boy or girl, the doc may get it wrong
Androgen insensitivity.
Policy that punishes children for their parents marriage

I am sure there are many other issues, but this is just off the top of my head.