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Joseph Smith Papers
Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:48 pm
by dispirited
One of the original organizers of the Joseph Smith papers is talking for our 5 Sunday. They didn't say which one. Can you think of a good question to ask?
Re: Joseph Smith Papers
Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:02 pm
by AllieOop
dispirited wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:48 pm
One of the original organizers of the Joseph Smith papers is talking for our 5 Sunday. They didn't say which one. Can you think of a good question to ask?
Are they personally aware of any documents, records, or papers discovered that were not included or published? If so, which ones and why was the decision made to not publish them?
Re: Joseph Smith Papers
Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:08 pm
by dispirited
Thanks!
Re: Joseph Smith Papers
Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:23 pm
by dispirited
Ron Esplin held up a book and said these are the council of 50 records. The church is now transparent.
Re: Joseph Smith Papers
Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:26 pm
by dispirited
He said "its not important to me that Mormon was a real man who kept the golden plates for our day."
Re: Joseph Smith Papers
Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:45 pm
by dispirited
He said "its not important to me that Mormon was a real man who kept the golden plates for our day."
Re: Joseph Smith Papers
Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:06 pm
by AllieOop
dispirited wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:45 pm
He said "its not important to me that Mormon was a real man who kept the golden plates for our day."
Wow! Do you think he was hinting that it's not important to him to know that the Book of Mormon is a factually historical record?
Re: Joseph Smith Papers
Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:09 pm
by AllieOop
dispirited wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:23 pm
Ron Esplin held up a book and said these are the council of 50 records. The church is now transparent.
Well, not quite...but certainly making strides and doing better. From what I've heard, there are still documents locked away that are so damaging, they will most likely never see the light of day (at least not on purpose
).
Re: Joseph Smith Papers
Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:41 pm
by blazerb
AllieOop wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:09 pm
dispirited wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:23 pm
Ron Esplin held up a book and said these are the council of 50 records. The church is now transparent.
Well, not quite...but certainly making strides and doing better. From what I've heard, there are still documents locked away that are so damaging, they will most likely never see the light of day (at least not on purpose
).
I understand what you are saying, but if the leaders have to hide fewer things they are still lying, at least by Miracle of Forgiveness standards.
Re: Joseph Smith Papers
Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:57 pm
by AllieOop
blazerb wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:41 pm
AllieOop wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:09 pmWell, not quite...but certainly making strides and doing better. From what I've heard, there are still documents locked away that are so damaging, they will most likely never see the light of day (at least not on purpose
).
I understand what you are saying, but if the leaders have to hide fewer things they are still lying, at least by Miracle of Forgiveness standards.
I agree. But we're talking about more writings and info regarding Joseph and Helen's marriage, etc. Those are so highly guarded that I've wondered why they haven't just destroyed them?
Re: Joseph Smith Papers
Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:32 pm
by blazerb
AllieOop wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:57 pm
I agree. But we're talking about more writings and info regarding Joseph and Helen's marriage, etc. Those are so highly guarded that I've wondered why they haven't just destroyed them?
That's an interesting question. I remember reading that there is evidence that someone (Joseph Fielding Smith?) removed the earliest account of the first vision from the book in which it was recorded, but even so did not destroy it. I think our leaders do believe the history is important even if they don't want anyone to know it. Somewhere I also read that there was someone in Daughters of the Utah Pioneers that was destroying as many accounts of the MM massacre as they could find. That may have been recounted in Blood of the Prophets. I am sure some things have been destroyed.
Re: Joseph Smith Papers
Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:56 pm
by AllieOop
blazerb wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:32 pm
AllieOop wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:57 pm
But we're talking about more writings and info regarding Joseph and Helen's marriage, etc. Those are so highly guarded that I've wondered why they haven't just destroyed them?
That's an interesting question. I remember reading that there is evidence that someone (Joseph Fielding Smith?) removed the earliest account of the first vision from the book in which it was recorded, but even so did not destroy it. I think our leaders do believe the history is important even if they don't want anyone to know it. Somewhere I also read that there was someone in Daughters of the Utah Pioneers that was destroying as many accounts of the MM massacre as they could find. That may have been recounted in Blood of the Prophets. I am sure some things have been destroyed.
Yes, I agree. I've been told that all journals were edited or taken. I know that my ancestor's journal (who was a counselor in the SP that was involved in the planing of the MMM) is completely missing the entries for the week prior to the attack and the week or so afterwards and he made nearly daily entries in his journal....but those dates are gone now. Lots of cover ups (and not just regarding MMM).
I do think they highly value the church records (especially those related to Joseph) and that's why they lock them up rather than destroy them.
Re: Joseph Smith Papers
Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:22 pm
by Thoughtful
AllieOop wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:57 pm
blazerb wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:41 pm
AllieOop wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:09 pmWell, not quite...but certainly making strides and doing better. From what I've heard, there are still documents locked away that are so damaging, they will most likely never see the light of day (at least not on purpose
).
I understand what you are saying, but if the leaders have to hide fewer things they are still lying, at least by Miracle of Forgiveness standards.
I agree. But we're talking about more writings and info regarding Joseph and Helen's marriage, etc. Those are so highly guarded that I've wondered why they haven't just destroyed them?
Gah! How could it be worse than it already is?
Re: Joseph Smith Papers
Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:30 pm
by Hagoth
AllieOop wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:56 pm I've been told that all journals were edited or taken.
Hans Madsen said that one of the things he was told in his Quorum of the Seventies training sessions was that they are not allowed to keep journals any more. Too many potential messes that would require cleaning up later.
Re: Joseph Smith Papers
Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 8:51 pm
by 2bizE
One of my favorite papers is where you can see the JS 1832 FV cut from the letterbook and then taped back in many years later with scotch tape. The handy work of Jo fielding Smith.
Re: Joseph Smith Papers
Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 2:54 am
by redjay
2bizE wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2017 8:51 pm
One of my favorite papers is where you can see the JS 1832 FV cut from the letterbook and then taped back in many years later with scotch tape. The handy work of Jo fielding Smith.
That action is in my mind, more damaging than the fact there are different versions of the 1st vision (assuming we are referring to the same thing). JS lying about polygamy is more damaging to my belief than the polygamy. The cover ups are irrefutable and go against the very ethical code that the church has vocally espoused and expected of me.
Re: Joseph Smith Papers
Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 5:20 am
by nibbler
AllieOop wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:02 pm
Are they personally aware of any documents, records, or papers discovered that were not included or published? If so, which ones and why was the decision made to not publish them?
Could you trust the answer?
Re: Joseph Smith Papers
Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:21 am
by fh451
dispirited wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:23 pm
Ron Esplin held up a book and said these are the council of 50 records. The church is now transparent.
So basically he admitted that they were not transparent before?
fh451
Re: Joseph Smith Papers
Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 11:02 am
by AllieOop
nibbler wrote: ↑Tue May 02, 2017 5:20 am
AllieOop wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:02 pm
Are they personally aware of any documents, records, or papers discovered that were not included or published? If so, which ones and why was the decision made to not publish them?
Could you trust the answer?
Ha! Good question
Re: Joseph Smith Papers
Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 11:17 am
by Corsair
dispirited wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:23 pm
Ron Esplin held up a book and said these are the council of 50 records. The church is now transparent.
The church is transparent on the specific records he was holding in his hand at that moment. Financial records are not in his stewardship, after all. I get the feeling that he feels comfortable with the transparency on all of the documents
that the First Presidency has handed over to him. I am wondering what further historical gems are still under lock and key.