NOM

I just yesterday afternoon found out about Elder Holland's "Wrong Roads" story.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNQC-_srxH8

Elder Holland tells how he and his son were driving home after a day in the wilds and came to a fork in the road and they didn't know which way to go.

So they both prayed and were inspired to go to the right. But 400-600 yards down the road God told them to take, it dead-ended.

So they went back and took the other road.

The moral of the story is that God told them to take the wrong road so they would know that the road God told them not to take was really the right road.

This is wrong on so many levels. It is hard to believe a guy as bright as Elder Holland, who has read a few books and went to a pretty good school, could come up with this.

But the story impacted me deeply, as I applied it to myself.

I am not 400 yards down the wrong road, but 40-years. So now I am finding out that the road God led me down was really the wrong road, and Elder Holland is okay with God doing this to me.

Only I can't just back up 400 yards and take the right road. Instead, I have to back up 40-years to take the road God wanted me to take all along.

I know Elder Holland's story makes no sense, but for some reason this is really bothering me.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Wow, there's a lot of irony in that talk that I never thought about before. You are absolutely right in that the story is a very bad example to use in a conference talk or for life. It just proves that regardless of prayer, good and bad happens and does not have to be attributed to anything. Holland and other TBMs paint themselves in a corner because they try to attribute everything to God or Satan. It's frustrating to see how they spin their life stories anyway they wish to fit their stupid metaphors and narratives. 40+ years down the wrong road was my situation as well, only I no longer attribute that to a God or a Devil, it was just my situation and I'm so glad I finally turned around and took the better road before I got to the end of my life!

Heck, I could use an example of my gram cracker breaking off and falling into my milk and getting all soggy and make that work in a conference talk. It's such BS!

I remember hearing this story for the first time and I was like, "What?!" God told him to go the wrong way on purpose? How is this not proof that we don't know how to interpret answers to prayers?

Holland's God is kind of a jerk. He tells us one thing, just to show us that the opposite is true? He is incapable of getting the real "good news" to 99.9% of his children. He established his one truth through a method that his so fraught with contradictions and broken hearts, and fractured relationships? He commanded Joseph Smith to do polygamy and polyandry, the issue that does more damage to his one true church than any other, and then changes his mind. He lets his prophets and apostles make very big mistakes. He makes some of his children gay and wants them to live miserable lives so he can test them? He commanded Joseph to use the papyrus to "translate" the Book of Abraham when he knew it would be proven not a translation later on? Holland's God just isn't very nice.

I too have probably wasted large portions of my life for something that isn't real. However, I continue to waste my life on other things that are not really that important and probably meaningless in the grand scope of things anyway, so I don't feel too bad about that. The discipline the church gave me probably made me go farther in life than I would have otherwise.

What we do have control of is what we choose to do in the future. I personally am choosing not to waste any more time on the LDS church. I am more than happy to invest time into relationships with TBM members, but not on the church itself.

Maybe there is no right or wrong road, only different life experiences with each road. Choosing more than one road brings new experience.

This is a man who claims to be a special witness for God/Jesus. Yet god previosly speaks to him and tells him wrong things? WTF?

2bizE wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:14 pm Maybe there is no right or wrong road, only different life experiences with each road. Choosing more than one road brings new experience.

Maybe there is no god telling humans what road to take. Choosing to unbelieve in god brings new experience. Sorry if this thread jacks.

I think I came to this conclusion before I left the LDS church, but basically (in LDS theology) you really can't count on God for anything. You can pray for safety, but if God needs you back in heaven, you're gone. You can ask about what job to take, but if God wants to teach you some kind of lesson, it could turn out miserably. You can get a blessing to be healed from some illness, but if it's not God's will, well... you know. So basically, pray all you want, but God's gonna do what God's gonna do.

fh451

The lesson here is that the God of key finding does not serve as an effective GPS navigational aid.

I'm still waiting to hear the General Conference talk on Joseph Smith being the third born son of the Almighty. Speaking of which, how about the introductions of Latter-Day Saint's Saints starting with Eyring the patron saint of chemistry? Or Bednar, the patron saint of sour pickles and righteous indignation?

One of the things this story illustrates is that if there is a choice between Elder Holland being wrong and God being wrong, Elder Holland is going to throw God under the bus . . . every time.

And sometimes he tells you to go to Canada to sell a manuscript just for sh1ts and giggles, or was that Satan doing the telling, or is it just the prophet doing the telling so he can crack on to your wife?


It's mentally exhausting.

Good grief, RFM just did a whole podcast detailing how the LDS Church has no miracles or revelation left to speak of.

Now we have this story where Elder Holland claims a revelation.

Only the revelation is wrong.

And that is the miracle!

We have come to the point where not only is there no revelation, revelation that turns out to be flat-ass wrong is true revelation.

consiglieri wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:58 pm One of the things this story illustrates is that if there is a choice between Elder Holland being wrong and God being wrong, Elder Holland is going to throw God under the bus . . . every time.

Taffy pulling God refusing to answer me this question or that question.

When I think of this story I find myself simultaneously laughing and crying. Laughing because of how ridiculous the story is at every level, and crying because Elder Holland either thinks it's a great story or thinks he can convince us that it is.

His underlying dilemma that shows so obviously through the cracks is that he is faced with the realization that answers to prayers don't work any better for apostles than they do for the rest of us. So he has to rewrite even such a simple little goof-up to maintain his assurance that he is a chosen man-o-God, so anything that pops into his head must certainly be the will of God, no matter how stupid it is.

Wouldn't it be great if the story ended with Elder Holland having a good laugh at taking himself too seriously, rather than blaming God for his bumbling attempt to save face in front of his boy. It should have ended with a mutual chuckle over a dish of ice cream, rather than a "don't worry, son, I'm still a big honcho in the God department."

consiglieri wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:00 pm Good grief, RFM just did a whole podcast detailing how the LDS Church has no miracles or revelation left to speak of.

RFM?

redjay wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:02 pm


RFM?

Radio Free Mormon.

I flatter myself it is becoming so well-known it can be referred to by initials.

Consiglieri,

A couple of thoughts and scriptures come to mind.

First the parable of the wheat and the tares makes it clear to me that the "true church" won't be restored until the 2nd Coming (if one is a believer in that, which I still do.) Therefore in our time, we are left with a number of versions of Christianity to choose from. And I think many people in the past have settled for what felt most comfortable at the time. ETA: I bring this up because it means that none of us could have gotten it 100% right as far as choosing an organization, no matter how hard we tried.

When I left the LDS church I told my SP that I felt like Mark 9:38-41 had taken on a new significance for me. In essence it stated that individuals who do works or miracles in Christ's name or use His name in a benign way, but don't follow Him correctly in all things, aren't necessarily under any condemnation. I also inferred that the LDS church could be a place where an individual could receive a testimony of Christ and take note of some admirable qualities the church promotes and still be led to know that the church wasn't the one and only "true church". Obviously he didn't think the Lord was capable of being that sophisticated in His dealings with the children of men. He had a much more black and white mind set.

Still thinking of the individual in Mark who was casting out devils, he wasn't trying to get anyone to follow him instead of Christ. He wasn't presenting himself as an intermediary between man and Christ. Those kinds of people bring to mind the scripture in Matthew 7 which speaks of false prophets and those who have led people in Christ's name but for their own glory.

I try not to be too judgmental regarding LDS leadership because in all honesty I don't know what is in their hearts. It's not my place to condemn them. But it is my place to recognize falsehood, misrepresentation, priestcraft, wresting or twisting the scriptures and (to use a phrase they seem to love) unrighteous dominion and to emphatically reject it.

So the upshot is, I feel like some time, efforts and money have been wasted in the LDS faith but there has been a good side as well. I think that's because even though the church is quite in error and not remotely what it claims to be, Christ still honors His own name and brings as many to Himself as He can by any means possible. After doing a little study on the phrase "Seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you," I found that the implied meaning in the Greek is more like "Continually be seeking, continually be asking and you will continue to find and the way will be opened up to you."

So I see Mormonism as not a complete waste of time but rather a part of a very interesting journey that becomes more satisfying and enjoyable as it goes on. Plus I can look at LDS leadership for the poor slaves that they are. They are so, so terribly in bondage to the "traditions of their fathers" and the phrase "if the blind lead the blind shall they both not fall in the ditch?" keeps coming to mind. It feels really nice not to be in the ditch any longer.

Don't lose hope. I think someday we will find that the journey itself and how we behaved as an individual to others was/is much more important than "getting it right".

Thanks so much for your thoughtful and insightful comments, Pale Rider.

I really appreciate them. I am going to chew them over for some time to come.

Seriously? What a terribly bland story. Just like the rest of conference. I'm so on board with RFM on this. That's it? That's your mightiest, inspiring miracle? Whatever happened to the good old days when God wiped out entire civilizations using a hairy man wielding the jaw-bone of an ass? Would love to see a movie where Samson buddies up with Marvel's Wolverine. Epic.

Unlike you, Consiglieri and others, I sure wish I would have figured this out at 40. I'm 60 and just figured it out. Sh t . . .

And the still small voice thing. Such a reliable construct. Hard to wrap a head around the fact that the church is duct-taped together at the seams by something less tangible than a fragment of dandruff falling gracefully and landing on my toenail. And it's a good thing E. Holland and son didn't drive another 400 yards or we all know what would have happened. Eternally stuck in the 'Groundhog day' loop.

I picture the day Elder Holland is scheduled to pass by the pearly gates.

God: "Where's Holland? Shouldn't he be here by now?"

Peter: "Remember? You told him to take the 'other road'."

God: "Shoot. I was just kidding? Can't he tell?"

Peter: "He thinks he can."

God: "He could have just stopped at the 7-11 and asked how to get there."

Peter: "He did. But that made sense, so he decided to ask you instead. Remember?"

God: "Oh yeah. That's why I thought it would be funny to mess with him a bit."

God told me to serve a mission, it ended up one of the worst decisions of my life. I came home after having a mental breakdown and attempting to take my own life. I was very confused as to why God would have me go on a mission to try to kill me.

The answer came back: God sent me on a mission because I needed to go. I didn't know at the time what good it will do, but it was the right place for me to be.

The worst part is, I bought it.

document wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:25 pm The worst part is, I bought it.

I waste a lot of time regretting my rationalizations, but to do so is self abuse so I don't allow it to take much root. That said, it sounds like negative experience with the church has had a pretty profound effect on you so I wouldn't minimize it or dismiss it, but hopefully you realize that we all in some way did the same thing. But I won't sermonize on it, just letting you know you aren't alone in that regard.

document wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:25 pm God told me to serve a mission, it ended up one of the worst decisions of my life. I came home after having a mental breakdown and attempting to take my own life. I was very confused as to why God would have me go on a mission to try to kill me.

The answer came back: God sent me on a mission because I needed to go. I didn't know at the time what good it will do, but it was the right place for me to be.

The worst part is, I bought it.

Holy shit, document!

That is awful.

Loki has nothing on the Mormon God of Elder Holland.