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Finger Nail polish
Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:01 am
by Misbehaved Woman
Oh my heck(yes I said heck), I have a TBM friend that posted on FB yesterday inquiring if it would be good parenting to paint her 6yr old sons finger nails. He had been asking if he could. However he had already been made fun of at school so she was worried it might not be a good idea. While I agree this is good parental consideration, I think her focus should be more on teaching her son to be confident, not worry about what others think etc. building him up instead of preventing him from doing things that might rock the social norm boat.
Anyways the killer was the comments that followed. One TBM mom posted " Would you let him pass the sacrament like that? Gender roles are a part of God's plan." followed by "This isn't about contention dear, this is a legitimate question for personal reflection... What are we asked to look like entering the Lord's house, going on a mission, etc. As our daily dress?
My personal parenting opinion is that I'm not trying to raise children, I'm trying to raise disciples of Christ so the potential of who I want my children to become is always the guide when making tough decisions."
I wanted to die. This is why I struggle with feeling comfortable raising my children in this religion. My children throughout this whole process have been my number one concern. Am I damning them? Am I changing their future for worse or better? The thought that my decisions will change their entire life weighs so heavily on my heart everyday.
Seriously though I want my children to experience the world not be afraid of it.
What are your thoughts? Dads here would this even be a topic of discussion for you?
Re: Finger Nail polish
Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:00 am
by No Tof
Misbehaved Woman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:01 am
Seriously though I want my children to experience the world not be afraid of it
From reading the posts for the past couple of Brother Misbehaved(Kor), I'd say you as a couple will raise great little misbehavers.
Seriously I think the part of your post that I quoted, sums up my feeling about raising kids. Lucky you that have seen the reality of religion early on and can give your children better tools than many of us older NOMS.
Hope your TBM friend can figure out her dilemma with the finger nail polish.
Re: Finger Nail polish
Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:35 am
by alas
Yes, we all know that the most important part of being like Jesus is for boys to be gender shamed for wanting a fun part of being a girl. Gender roles are the most important aspect of the gospel. [end sarcasm]
There are several solutions for this that do not involve shaming the son for wanting to step outside of the strict gender stereotypes that the Mormon church demands. One is to give him "boy" nail polish, say black with red streaks that look like blood, or do camouflage with brown and green. You know, something gross instead of pretty. Another is to say that President Trump wears clear nail polish (because seriously many rich man have professional manicures with clear polish or a buffing that looks just like clear polish) and go with that. Another is what my DIL does. The boy or two girls can play all they want with nail polish, make up, or dress up. My grandson does look cute in a pink tutu. She even lets them use temporary color on their hair, all as "dress up play." But when going out in public, they need to be dressed neatly with no make up, nail polish, dress up clothing, or hair color, because church standards are that girls should not wear make up until 16, and isn't nail polish just a form of make up. The same standard applies to the boy as to the girls. Nobody leaves home in play clothing. There is a distinct difference between play, and real life. The dress up box has princess, superman, hulk, pirate, cowboy, ballerina, as well as a huge assortment of jewelry, scarves, skirts, vampire teeth, and make up, nail polish, mostly all picked up at DIs.
The important thing is not to shame him for wanting girly things or make him hate being a boy cause girls get fun things boy don't.
Re: Finger Nail polish
Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:51 am
by Red Ryder
I love the irony in this. Grown up enough to have kids but not mature enough to make decisions for them without consulting the Facebook circle of friends. Or perhaps that's what's really going on here. Click bait to get a reaction on Facebook.
As a dad, I have to say paint them then wash it off on Saturday night. Or better yet, go build something cool in the garage with a couple of hammers and let smashed fingers be the nail polish of choice.
How does that primary song go?
Saturday is a special day.
It's the day we dread getting ready for Sunday:
We clean the house, and we shop at the store,
So we won't have to work until Monday.
We brush our clothes, and we shine our shoes,
And we call it our full weekend day.
Then we wash off our nail polish, and we shampoo our hair,
So we can dread getting ready for Sunday!
Re: Finger Nail polish
Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:53 am
by Red Ryder
alas wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:35 amThe important thing is not to shame him for wanting girly things or make him hate being a boy cause girls get fun things boy don't.
Like periods!
Re: Finger Nail polish
Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:41 am
by Linked
As a dad, yes, this is definitely a topic of conversation. My TBM brother has a 5 year old son who loves to dress up as a girl. The son has told them he thinks he should be a girl. We've discussed this some, and my brother has not tried to force him to stop. His rules are similar to what Alas said.
Just the other night that nephew, my son, and my niece wanted to play dress up and the only dress up clothes at grandma's house are dresses. They all came up crying because one of the older nephews wouldn't let the boys wear the dresses, and my TBM brother went and told his son to let the kids play dress up.
Re: Finger Nail polish
Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:25 pm
by Misbehaved Woman
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:53 am
alas wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:35 amThe important thing is not to shame him for wanting girly things or make him hate being a boy cause girls get fun things boy don't.
Like periods!
Yes Red Ryder girls get all the fun don't we.
Re: Finger Nail polish
Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:28 pm
by Thoughtful
alas wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:35 am
because church standards are that girls should not wear make up until 16,
Wait, what?
Re: Finger Nail polish
Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:35 pm
by redjay
Re: Finger Nail polish
Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:47 pm
by Misbehaved Woman
alas wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:35 am
Yes, we all know that the most important part of being like Jesus is for boys to be gender shamed for wanting a fun part of being a girl. Gender roles are the most important aspect of the gospel. [end sarcasm]
There are several solutions for this that do not involve shaming the son for wanting to step outside of the strict gender stereotypes that the Mormon church demands. One is to give him "boy" nail polish, say black with red streaks that look like blood, or do camouflage with brown and green. You know, something gross instead of pretty. Another is to say that President Trump wears clear nail polish (because seriously many rich man have professional manicures with clear polish or a buffing that looks just like clear polish) and go with that. Another is what my DIL does. The boy or two girls can play all they want with nail polish, make up, or dress up. My grandson does look cute in a pink tutu. She even lets them use temporary color on their hair, all as "dress up play." But when going out in public, they need to be dressed neatly with no make up, nail polish, dress up clothing, or hair color, because church standards are that girls should not wear make up until 16, and isn't nail polish just a form of make up. The same standard applies to the boy as to the girls. Nobody leaves home in play clothing. There is a distinct difference between play, and real life. The dress up box has princess, superman, hulk, pirate, cowboy, ballerina, as well as a huge assortment of jewelry, scarves, skirts, vampire teeth, and make up, nail polish, mostly all picked up at DIs.
The important thing is not to shame him for wanting girly things or make him hate being a boy cause girls get fun things boy don't.
Thanks Alas for sharing. I agree there are several solutions and the shaming and gender steryotypes need to stop. I majored in Construction Management but I recall as a child when boy cousins were helping grandpa build a cabin and hammer nails and saw boards, I was told to go help grandma in the kitchen. It devastated me. I wanted to build but was told it was for the boys.
I guess I would say whats so wrong with a child going out in public once in a while in make up, dress ups or finger nail polish? I let my 4 yr old dress himself and most times he doesn't match. So I will give him some pointers but not tell him his decisions are wrong. Then I will suggest other options and sometimes I will just let him go out in whatever he picked out. Does that make me a bad parent setting him up for teasing or dirty looks or a good one for letting him express himself, learn to dress himself & discover for himself what he likes and dislikes. (for instance he loves jackets in ht AZ) but after wearing one in the heat he realizes for himself it is hot. Where as I could have just told him no to the jacket. By doing this I would tell him why but would he understand as well the concept by me just telling him? IDK I personally think finger nail polish has nothing to do with our salvation so why stress where its worn and who wears it.
Re: Finger Nail polish
Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:55 pm
by Misbehaved Woman
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:51 am
I love the irony in this. Grown up enough to have kids but not mature enough to make decisions for them without consulting the Facebook circle of friends. Or perhaps that's what's really going on here. Click bait to get a reaction on Facebook.
As a dad, I have to say paint them then wash it off on Saturday night. Or better yet, go build something cool in the garage with a couple of hammers and let smashed fingers be the nail polish of choice.
How does that primary song go?
Saturday is a special day.
It's the day we dread getting ready for Sunday:
We clean the house, and we shop at the store,
So we won't have to work until Monday.
We brush our clothes, and we shine our shoes,
And we call it our full weekend day.
Then we wash off our nail polish, and we shampoo our hair,
So we can dread getting ready for Sunday!
Red Ryder, So are you saying you'd rather your boy hammer his finger and have his finger nail turn purple than have him paint his nails?
Nice interpretation of the song.
Re: Finger Nail polish
Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:58 pm
by Misbehaved Woman
Thoughtful wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:28 pm
alas wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:35 am
because church standards are that girls should not wear make up until 16,
Wait, what?
Alas,
I am not sure this is policy but maybe instead a cultural myth. Do you know if it states anywhere that girls should not wear make up until they are 16?
Re: Finger Nail polish
Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:00 pm
by Misbehaved Woman
Redjay,
I love your honesty. It's crazy how deep the indoctrination runs isn't it.
Re: Finger Nail polish
Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:49 pm
by Red Ryder
Misbehaved Woman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:55 pmRed Ryder, So are you saying you'd rather your boy hammer his finger and have his finger nail turn purple than have him paint his nails?
I'm saying I would prefer to spend quality time with my kid than worry about trivial things like the color of his fingernails.
Re: Finger Nail polish
Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:18 pm
by Give It Time
When my son was young, he'd occasionally dress up in or play with girls' things. I didn't encourage nor did I shame. Frankly, I had two sons and there wasn't a whole lot of girls'stuff in the house. However, he was curious but I'd breathe a sigh of relief when I'd see him gravitate back toward the boy things.
Last year, I stepped in the shower and saw that the shower floor was covered with short, dark, curly hair. I looked at that and said, "Aw Hell to the no!" I said that, not because of the interesting grooming ritual that had taken place, but because that person hadn't cleaned up after himself. Turned out it was my older son. He had shaved his legs because he had taken up cross dressing. We went to a park to discuss it. He showed me pictures of himself. He looks damned fine in a skirt. Better than I ever did. He has legs that go on for miles. Gift from his father. I told my son I always wanted a daughter, I just wasn't expecting it to be like this. That is how I spent my Father's Day.
I divorced from my sons' father, because he was an abuser and proud of it. They want nothing to do with him. Still, I was raised with the idea that boys need fathers and they need fathers to become men. I wasn't just raised with that idea. I believe it. However, my sons we rejecting every man who tried to be a mentor. Their uncles weren't stepping up, because they didn't approve of the divorce. I was a bit flumoxed by this, but then decided to raise my sons simply to be good people.
The X-dressing son is currently in the Orient. I'm a little trepidatious about this trip. I'm his mother. However, he's emancipated. Nothing I can do. It's not that we're hiding this trip from his father. It's that this is my son's story to tell. My son doesn't talk to his father. You do the math. Last night, his father wrote to me and tore me up one side and down another for a) not telling him about the trip and b) letting him go. I wrote my son and told him about it. He told me to forward the email. It was his trip. He would handle it. I told him that was very manly.
The next morning, I found a PM from my son. He had written a response to his father and wanted to run it by me. It was a long harangue. I thought it too long, but it said some things my son has been keeping bottled up. It started off by saying that the purpose of this trip was service work. He's been helping out a couple of charities in a couple of countries. He loves the work. He enjoys giving back and doing something useful with his life. He then vented his outrage that his father was pretending concern. He told his father he shouldn't even dare to try to shame me over a choice that was his and his alone. He went on to defend me some more and slam his father some more. He assured his father whatever response he gave would be broadcast widely. It would not be secret and he would not protect him.
I told him my one concern was his father using the public platform to try to shame us, but then I said, "bring it". Even though it's not what I would have written, it was remarkably eloquent and said some things that needed to be said. I consider it an early Mother's Day present.
MW, may I present to you, my very manly X-dressing, courageous, magenta and cyan colored hair, compassionate, man-bun wearing, sacrificing, recently got a tattoo, independent and strong son. I couldn't be more proud of him.
...for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart. --1 Samuel 16:7
Re: Finger Nail polish
Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:04 pm
by alas
Misbehaved Woman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:58 pm
Thoughtful wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:28 pm
alas wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:35 am
because church standards are that girls should not wear make up until 16,
Wait, what?
Alas,
I am not sure this is policy but maybe instead a cultural myth. Do you know if it states anywhere that girls should not wear make up until they are 16?
Come to think of it, it may be more cultural going beyond the mark. But back when my daughter was a teenager, it was a rule and I assumed it was in the For the strength of youth. But we all know how someone in authority can say something and it becomes a commandment. So, possibly it was a Texas rule. I don't really remember hearing it growing up myself. I know when I worked in YW as Mia Maid advisor, we had an activity where we learned what colors looked best on the girls and how to apply make up an so on, and I got in trouble because the girls were not 16 yet. I obviously didn't know it was a rule, or I would not have done it. I was told that since the girls were not old enough to be wearing make up, that I should not be teaching them about it. No problem that I knew that three of them were going to a friend's house after school to wash off their makeup before going home, and I kind of thought that since they ARE wearing make up, maybe they should learn to do a better job of it cause two of the three looked awful because they didn't have a clue cause mom wouldn't teach them. Some parents were pissed. The girls wanted to learn to do make up and I was willing to teach them.
Re: Finger Nail polish
Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:06 pm
by Korihor
Regarding all this talk on how to raise kids, I struggle to make the appropriate parenting decisions. I want to him to enjoy life and succeed, but I know that means he must experience failure and challenges as well.
We have a 2 yr old cute-as-a-bug daughter. Although not necessarily a LDS cultural thing, I've seen the gamut of ideas regarding piercing ears as an infant, to no piercings, to only 1 piercing when 8 or 12 or 18.
We decided to let her decide when/if to do it. When she asks about it (and we reasonably feel she is capable of making that decision) she can do it.
Regarding our son and painting his fingernails, he can do it and we'll say it's Fire Engine Red Industrial Epoxy Keratin Coating
Re: Finger Nail polish
Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:48 pm
by Give It Time
I've never been with my son in public when he wears a dress, but his usual look is wearing his long hair down (or man-bunned). His hair has been champagne color, turquoise, cyan and it is currently cyan and magenta. His clothing choices lean toward anime-steampunk. I live in Utah County. His look is very on trend. He gets compliments from most people everywhere he goes. I see young men and teenaged young men with nail polish.
I think this boy might have noticed that there are older males wearing nail polish. I can tell you those kids that are making fun of him are the problem. As someone who has lost weight to get people to like me. Most don't come around. It's just an excuse and I ended up seeing through that. Then, there are the ones who did come around and I respected them every less. I was the same person in every way. The only difference was twenty pounds. If kids are making fun of that boy, they aren't friend material.
Re: Finger Nail polish
Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:20 pm
by Misbehaved Woman
Give It Time wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:18 pm
When my son was young, he'd occasionally dress up in or play with girls' things. I didn't encourage nor did I shame. Frankly, I had two sons and there wasn't a whole lot of girls'stuff in the house. However, he was curious but I'd breathe a sigh of relief when I'd see him gravitate back toward the boy things.
Last year, I stepped in the shower and saw that the shower floor was covered with short, dark, curly hair. I looked at that and said, "Aw Hell to the no!" I said that, not because of the interesting grooming ritual that had taken place, but because that person hadn't cleaned up after himself. Turned out it was my older son. He had shaved his legs because he had taken up cross dressing. We went to a park to discuss it. He showed me pictures of himself. He looks damned fine in a skirt. Better than I ever did. He has legs that go on for miles. Gift from his father. I told my son I always wanted a daughter, I just wasn't expecting it to be like this. That is how I spent my Father's Day.
I divorced from my sons' father, because he was an abuser and proud of it. They want nothing to do with him. Still, I was raised with the idea that boys need fathers and they need fathers to become men. I wasn't just raised with that idea. I believe it. However, my sons we rejecting every man who tried to be a mentor. Their uncles weren't stepping up, because they didn't approve of the divorce. I was a bit flumoxed by this, but then decided to raise my sons simply to be good people.
The X-dressing son is currently in the Orient. I'm a little trepidatious about this trip. I'm his mother. However, he's emancipated. Nothing I can do. It's not that we're hiding this trip from his father. It's that this is my son's story to tell. My son doesn't talk to his father. You do the math. Last night, his father wrote to me and tore me up one side and down another for a) not telling him about the trip and b) letting him go. I wrote my son and told him about it. He told me to forward the email. It was his trip. He would handle it. I told him that was very manly.
The next morning, I found a PM from my son. He had written a response to his father and wanted to run it by me. It was a long harangue. I thought it too long, but it said some things my son has been keeping bottled up. It started off by saying that the purpose of this trip was service work. He's been helping out a couple of charities in a couple of countries. He loves the work. He enjoys giving back and doing something useful with his life. He then vented his outrage that his father was pretending concern. He told his father he shouldn't even dare to try to shame me over a choice that was his and his alone. He went on to defend me some more and slam his father some more. He assured his father whatever response he gave would be broadcast widely. It would not be secret and he would not protect him.
I told him my one concern was his father using the public platform to try to shame us, but then I said, "bring it". Even though it's not what I would have written, it was remarkably eloquent and said some things that needed to be said. I consider it an early Mother's Day present.
MW, may I present to you, my very manly X-dressing, courageous, magenta and cyan colored hair, compassionate, man-bun wearing, sacrificing, recently got a tattoo, independent and strong son. I couldn't be more proud of him.
...for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart. --1 Samuel 16:7
Give it time,
Thank you for sharing. You pretty much summed it up I think with nothing less then scripture.
...for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart. --1 Samuel 16:7
Thank you for being a courageous and loving mom who helped a struggling boy turn into an amazing man. A situation that we see all to often turn to heartache, loneliness and loss.
Re: Finger Nail polish
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:06 am
by hmb
Misbehaved Woman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:25 pm
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:53 am
alas wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:35 amThe important thing is not to shame him for wanting girly things or make him hate being a boy cause girls get fun things boy don't.
Like periods!
Yes Red Ryder girls get all the fun don't we.
Yay for menopause. Except for the getting old thing.
Ooooo, didn't you know that fingernail polish is the gateway cosmetic? Watch this slippery slope.
